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Old 11-13-2003, 10:59 AM   #1
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Need 9x23 info

Does anyone have a 9x23 load for shooting the 147 grain JHP. I am shooting bowling pins and the 125 gr. Remington JHP, just zips on through the pins. I have been using 7.8 grs. of 3N37 and small rifle primers.


Is it possible to safely use .38 Super Loadings. I am not interested in any super fast loading, I just want the pins to move.

I have been using a .45 acp, but I can shoot the 9x23 so much faster.

Thanks for any help, Buddy
 
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Old 11-13-2003, 04:35 PM   #2
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check out the following thread:

http://www.pistolsmith.com/viewtopic.php?t=13882

Dane (the guy that runs this site) is a wealth of 9x23 information. There is a link in the above post for his website, www.burnscustom.com ,that has some more good info and some load data on the cartridge. Just look to the left hand side and scroll down and follow the 'All About 9x23' link.

Im a novice reloader at best, so Im stocking up on the factory Winchester stuff when its for sale.
 
Old 11-14-2003, 06:11 PM   #3
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While Dane's site and the link are a good place to start, most people who shoot the 9x23 beyond 100K rounds come to realize that Dane's guidelines are simply a starting point and therefore have many exceptions. For example, I got a hell of a good 9x23 made by a smith that doesn't shoot that caliber. Just like I had some work done on a Sig by APG member who didn't carry a Sig

In terms of reload data, I've had great sucess by using hot 38 Super loads as a mid, or starting point for 9x23. There are an abundance of sources for 38 Super loadings.
 
Old 11-14-2003, 11:28 PM   #4
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BCP site's 9x23 info was intended as just that, a "starting point" for the folks new to 9x23. The info there is 8 and 9 years old currently. Some of the first powders like WAP are no longer available. One of the best current powders for 9x23 is hard to get, Vectan SP2.

When you can safely duplicate the factory loads with your own hand loads, in your own gun, then you'll know where to go next I suspect.

Quote:
I've had great success by using hot 38 Super loads as a mid, or starting point for 9x23
While John may suggest you use hot 38 loads as a start, no professional in the firearms business will because the pressures will be WAY past the max SAMMI specs for a 9x23. The 38 Super case is larger by volume than the 9x23 Winchester case. Stuffing a full load of ANY 38 Super data in a 9x23 Winchester case is not only foolish but dangerous, which is why I have not up dated my web site's loading data. Dangerous because the pressures will always be much higher in the 9x23 case. 9x23 Winchester has a smaller internal volume than the generic 38 Super SAMMI case. Smaller volume means higher pressures, powder charge and OAL being equal.

Max 38 Super SAMMI load specs are 36,500 PSI. Max SAMMI 9x23 Win is 55,000 PSI. 9x23 is 42% thicker at the web than 38 Super. The 9x23 is so strong the primer becomes the weak link. Unless of course you have actually fired your 1000 cases 100 times :roll: Then you would be well served looking for new brass.

The good thing for amateur reloaders who think that switching load data is acceptable, is the 9x23 win case was designed to proof at 50K CUP/55K PSI. So you might get away with such foolishness for awhile but a case letting go at 50K CUP gives "Superface" a whole new meaning.

A search on this web site will get you some safe 147 grain loads, posted by others here, doing 1400 fps.

If you want to shoot 9x23 I suggest a good progressive reloader, a number of reloading manuals and start off with mild 9x23 loads or light 38 super loads, checking for case bulging and primer flow as you go. A good digital mic and a chrono will tell you most everything you need to know past that if you have an experienced eye and aren't trying to duplicate a sonic cruiser.

I would still suggest having a 9x23 built by someone familiar with the caliber or buying a factory 9x23. From my own experience it is not the norm that a custom built 9x23 runs from the get-go if the number of conversations I have about 9x23 are any indication. There is a learning curve to build them to run right. Although I no longer do so, I have fixed 9x23s built by some of the better known smiths in the country. It appears that situation is better than a few years ago, but still not dated advice IMO when at least one still thinks using a 38 Super chamber is just fine for 9x23.

I am not looking for additional gun work when I make these comments. I am accepting very limited projects currently and none in 9x23. My comments here are only to give a better understanding on the 9x23 and it's limitations.

9x23 is an exceptional round but not in the form that Winchester produced it's loads and not in the off the shelf 9x23 production guns.

If Winchester, Springfield, Colt and even John B failed to understand the 9x23 it is easy to see why any number of good pistolsmiths and shooters have also.

Buddy,
To attempt an answer about your question bowling pins? The reason you can shoot the 9x23 faster is because the bullets are lighter and the recoil is flatter. If you want the bullets to stay in the pin and actually move them off the table I would suggest a heavier bullet. Add mass and diameter to the bullet and you can put more energy into the pin and move it off the table faster yet. Second Chance had a entire group of guys that would shoot heavy bullets for caliber and do very well. At least one of them on this list occasionally and might give you some additional inside info. Mr Higginbotham are you available? But I suspect a little slower shooting with a decent 45 load will always make a faster pin gun than any load in a 9x23.

regards,
Dane
 
Old 11-15-2003, 05:26 PM   #5
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Here's another idea. This link lists 9mm Largo loads, which some feel are a safe starting point for 9x23.

http://www.9mmlargo.com/cartridge/loads.htm.

When I went about triangulating on a 125gr fmj load I used this Largo info along with Vihta Vouri's load data for 38 super. Their min and max loads are around 7.1 and 7.7 grains of 3N37 (but check their manual). I haven't tried out the 9 grain load from Dane's site yet.

I think the same approach would work with 147 gr bullets, and other powders. But, if Dane or a component manufacturer haven't published it, you are literally on your own.

A while back someone posted some really really stout load data using Vectran SP2 in a 9x23, but I can't find it here now. Care to re-post it?

I've owned three 9x23s, and I guess I've been lucky. All of them have shot great (accurate and reliable) with a variety of loads and none of them have been touched by a smith that carries a 9x23 everyday. My current one was built by C.T. Brian and it is an absolute joy.
 
Old 11-15-2003, 07:32 PM   #6
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for my start loads..I look over a lot of 38 super and other 9x23 loads..I ususally back off a half a grain if I am looking at IPSC 38 super major loads and load in .2 increments and then make sure I have a chrono..

I use small rifle primers and WIN brass..so far I have had no problems and no issues with pressure..I haven;t tried the heavier bullets..sticking mostly with 115s and 124s...but I may need to try some for the heck of it..
 
Old 11-15-2003, 07:52 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eerw
for my start loads..I look over a lot of 38 super and other 9x23 loads..I ususally back off a half a grain if I am looking at IPSC 38 super major loads and load in .2 increments and then make sure I have a chrono..

I use small rifle primers and WIN brass..so far I have had no problems and no issues with pressure..I haven;t tried the heavier bullets..sticking mostly with 115s and 124s...but I may need to try some for the heck of it..
Makes sense to me, I think you use 231 if I'm not mistaken ??
I've used 38 Super and Largo information to get a starting point with this powder too. Worked great for me. But I guess I (we) just had luck on our side. Three people have personally emailed me (taoday) that they do the same thing though.
But were afraid to post it
 
Old 11-15-2003, 08:02 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John B
Makes sense to me, I think you use 231 if I'm not mistaken ??
Actually most of my load are with 3n37, WAP and WW540..I just got some 3n38 to try too..

A buddy of mine is liking 7625 and 4756, so I may be working loads up with those too..
 
Old 11-15-2003, 09:36 PM   #9
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Here's a link to a site with reloading information using some of those powders:

http://home.gci.net/~charlie/reload.htm
 
Old 11-16-2003, 04:42 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane Burns

While John may suggest you use hot 38 loads as a start, no professional in the firearms business will because the pressures will be WAY past the max SAMMI specs for a 9x23.
Dane
Dane several of your loads are way (15%+) above the the load data provided by reputable component manufacturers for 38 Super. Can I suggest you calm down a lttle bit?
 
Old 11-16-2003, 06:47 PM   #11
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HS7 10.2 125 JRN 1449 2.46
W540 9.6 125 JRN 1458 2.51
HS6 9.4 125 JRN 1464 1.53
WAP 8.9 125 JRN 1447 0.98
VV3n37 9.0 125 JRN 1452 1.10
VVN350 8.8 125 JRN 1448 1.44

WAP 7.5 135 Zero 0.75 My IDPA Load
WAP 6.3 125 JRN 1.10
WAP 6.5 135 LRN 1.00 My lead practice load. Oregon Trail bullet.
WSL 5.0 115 JRN 1157 1.22 Light load. Win XTP bullet.
WSL 5.0 115 JRN 1144 0.75 Light load. Win JRN.


Above is the list of 9x23 Winchester loads published at the BCP web site over 7 years ago. The top 5 loads were published by Lane Simpson in Shooting Times in 1996. Lane Simpson was one of the early advocates of the 9x23 in its modern form.

The list of powders given above and on the BCP site were an early example of powders that could be used in 9x23. Simpson and Shooting Times technical editors found the data safe enough to repeat to the general public.

Few are stupid enough to advocate in a public forum switching load data between any caliber/case combo, no matter how similar they first appear.

The mistake that is repeated here, again ... is that the 38 super or 9mm Largo and 9x23 have comparable internal ballistics. They don't.

Make a simple comparison of the 38 Super, 9x23 Winchester, 9mm Largo and the 9mm Mauser. The 9mm Mauser is closest in internal and external ballistics.

Factory specs.

9 Mauser is 128 @ 1362
9x23 is 124 @ 1450
Super is 125 @ 1200
Largo is 125 @ 1200

Which in its most simple for means...you can't compare or switch reloading info safely between cartridge designs. Internal ballistics and external ballistics may or may not have something in common.

Unless you have the ability to test both scientifically I would suggest not publishing your theories on reloading on this forum.

(Always start well below any published data for your own reloads.)
 
Old 11-16-2003, 09:06 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane Burns
Unless you have the ability to test both scientifically I would suggest not publishing your theories on reloading on this forum.
Good advice Dane. But where did I say that the ballisitcs where similar? Point it out exactly please.

Can you give us a rundown on your ballistic laboratory equipment? Like I said several of your loads are 15% over the manuals for 38 Super. Do you disagree with that?

When newer loads were published in a popular reloading magazine a while back you opined that they were crap too.

Why don't you re-post that Vectan SP suicide loading that you posted to a chorus of your own laughter (and advice to "hold on tight") some time back?

You don't really know what is posted here do you? Perhaps that is why you said to do a search for non-existent 147gr load information. It ain't here fella, but people, believe it or not experiment without your personal involvement.

The only theory I have is that everyday way more rounds of 9x23 are safely sent down range by guns you've never touched, using loads other than you specify on your site. Some of that information gets captured here. Whether you read it or not is up to you.

But I for one don't confuse your bitching with leadership.
 
Old 11-16-2003, 10:28 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John B
In terms of reload data, I've had great sucess by using hot 38 Super loads as a mid, or starting point for 9x23. There are an abundance of sources for 38 Super loadings.
The first sentence shows an ignorance of the basics of safe reloading and the 9x23 in particular. The second sentence is true enough.


:lol:

Quote:
The only theory I have is that everyday way more rounds of 9x23 are safely sent down range by guns you've never touched, using loads other than you specify on your site. Some of that information gets captured here.
Good theory John. Be a sad world if it weren't true. Lots of 9x23 guns around. 5000 by Colt in 9x23. Who knows how many by Springfield. I suspect it is less than 250 by all the custom makers together.

Nice thing about the 9x23 is that you can shoot sub 9mm Para loads with the right powder and get a 5" gun to function. Or you can pump up the right 146 or 160 grain bullets to 1300 or 1400fps. Doesn't mean all those loads are safe. The Winchester case will protect the fools and the ignorant to a great extent, even the ones who mistakenly use "hot 38 Super loads as a mid, or starting point for 9x23".

I'll leave it at this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by John B
I'm tired of the lack of civility shown by posts like this. Basic social graces call for us to stick to the topic not discuss the person making a comment. The thread below went from a thoughtful discussion to something much less in keeping with the objectives of this forum (as I understand it).


Like any published reloading data, duplicate my published info or anyone's with caution starting well below the published listings.
 
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