Bill Caldwell

Hey Buddy,
Some are gonna' say I'm bein' a bad influence on You. .....9x19 in a 9X23.

Thanks
Bill Caldwell

teamcorbon

Clark,

We load the 9x23 DPX to perform within certain parameters. The maximum penetration we wanted in 10% ballistic gelatin was 17". That's where we stopped with the 9x23 in the DPX load. If we load it to max pressure, it would penetrate way more than we feel is needed in a defensive loading.

Steve in Allentown, PA

Mike,

Don't tease us like that. We need to hear the rumors and stories.

So, if you don't mind, how about some more details on what "very impressive" means and how much do you think a max loaded round would penetrate?

Of course, you can't give too many details. Afterall, we wouldn't want to compromise anyone or give away any trade secrets. You never know, you may be able to talk me out of Silvertips and into PowRballs.

teamcorbon

Steve,

I really can't give much in detail (who or where). I can say that a shot to the back of the head from 30 ft with a 9x23 PowRball round from a 4" gun looked like a high power rifle wound on the front of the BG's head. It impressed me enough to get a barrel for my 5" 9mm 1911.

9x23 PowRball penetration in our tests using "properly prepared" 10% ballistic gelatin gives 14" with a recovered bullet that is almost flat and the size of a quarter.

The 9x23 DPX penetrates 17" and recovered diameters are in the .55" area.

The 125 JHP load penetrates about 13" and recovered diameters are @.60-.65"

This was our testing. We don't like quoting our figures, but there are no independent test results out there with these loads.

Steve in Allentown, PA

It sounds like what you would expect from a .357 which, as we all know, is what the 9x23 is.

As I've said in another post, I had the opportunity to speak face-to-face with John Ricco the inventor of the 9x23. One of the things that impressed me most was the penetration of FMJ's. He said he'd not seen any other pistol cartridge with the same penetration characteristics.

He told me about the time he was at the range along with a local cop who was testing a full length ballistic shield. I think some refer to these things as mobile bunkers. It has a window and the cops line up behind it as they advance on the bad guys. Anyway, the cop was shooting everything he had on hand at this thing to see how it would hold up. Then he ask Ricco to shoot his 9X23 at it. Apparently the 9x23 was the only round that caused the side opposite the impact to bulge out. He figured if hit the same spot a second time the 9x23 would have defeated the "bunker."

I'd also read somewhere that Winchester didn't produce an FMJ load specifically because of its extreme penetration.

Still, penetration has its advantages especially against bad guys with body armor and bad guys wearing heavy winter clothing or motorcycle leather.

louishob2

Sounds like the 9x23 PowRball is an extremely impressive round. However, Corbon isn't going to sell much of it if you need custom guns in the $2000 range to shoot it. Do cartridge manufacturers such as Corbon have any influence at all on gun manufacturers ? We need somebody making 9x23 handguns at reasonable prices before the 9x23 can take off.

Bill Caldwell

No need to spend $2000.00 for a 9x23. Any 1911 with a 9mm or 38 Super slide can be a 9x23 by fittin' a 9x23 barrel...at the worst, might have to work on or replace extractor and ejector. If no 9x23 barrels are handy...chamber a 9x19 or 9x21 to 9x23......To convert a 45cal.or a 40 cal 1911, buy a 9mm/38Super slide, fit a 9x23 barrel, change ejector and extractor,install other needed parts.

Thanks,
Bill Caldwell

louishob2

If I go the 9MM route, will a 9x23 magazine (assuming I can find one) fit in a 1911 9MM magazine well ? If I go the 1911 38 Super route I'm almost certain I'd need extractor work. We're talking about a rimless vs. a semi rim cartridge. However, the cartridge length is about right. All the custom jobs seem to be based on the 1911. Don't get me wrong, the 1911 is a great design (I've got a Colt Series 80). But I'm looking for a high capacity weapon. Any suggestions for a high capacity 9x23 that I won't have to mortgage the house to purchase ?

poohdawg

louishob2
Glock 20 = 17 + 1 . Add a plus 2 pad = 3 rounds of 9x23 = 21 shots.

louishob2

I've seen it mentioned a few times in this thread that a Glock 10 MM can be converted to 9x23 with a barrel change. Where can I get a 9x23 barrel for a Glock 20 ? Also, what do I do about the magazine ? Where would I get 9x23 magazines for the Glock ?

grendelbane

Sounds like you are set on a double stack gun. I would not let the extractor situation be the deciding factor, however. I have a home converted 9x23mm which uses a .38 Super slide. For quite a while I could not decide whether it was a 9x23mm, or a .38Super. Though the extractor was a bit loose with 9x23mm cases, it never failed to function. Eventually, I will adjust the tension on the extractor, and at that point will keep the .38 Super barrel and cases out of that slide.

The difference in diameter is so slight that all it takes is a minor adjustment.

Bill Caldwell

Louisbob2,
I don't know that there is a9x23 mag. May be My ignorance showin', I've always used 38Super mags. Rimless or Semi rimless? You won't know if You need extractor work untill You shoot the pistol. Anticipatin' problems often help make them happen.
High capacity weapon???10 round mag of 9x23 with one in the chamber to start.(A 1911) If 11 rounds won't solve the problem...it should at least by You reload time.
If You are thinkin' 2011 S-I or Caspain .....That could run up close to $2000 or over.
I have no idea what can be done with Glunks. I've attended two of their Armourer schools.....Never owned one.
Thanks,
Bill Caldwell

buddy_fuentes

Mr. Bill, I have such confidence in your knowledge...if you say rain is acoming...I'm looking for rain gear. And you are right as usual, but I do have two magazines, that came with my 9x23 Colt, that are marked 9x23. They are no different than a .38 Super magazine, other than the marking. I use mostly the Super mags because they are stainless, but it doesn't matter.

As written earlier; the 10 mm Glock can be converted to the 9x23 by a change of the barrel and possibly a little magazine tuning. I have not personally tried this conversion at this time. I have e-mailed a few that have and talked with a couple, too. They were pleased with the outcome. Heck, if it fails to meet your expectations, you are out $200.00 for a barrel. You still have a 10 mm Glock. Not too bad a deal in my book.

Best of luck to you.

Buddy

poohdawg

louishob
Bar-Sto Precision has drop in or match barrels.
Priced from $200-$265.
Glock 20 steel lined magazines work the best . You may have to bend the lips in a little.
I have converted a glock 20 and 29.

grendelbane

I doubt that there is a 9x23mm marked magazine being produced nowadays. I vaguely remember seeing one in the mag well of a 9x23mm Colt at a gun show. At the time, my ignorance was such that I was confusing the 9x23mm with the 9mm Steyr, which Colt also produced at one time, within my lifetime, anyway. I would like to know if there is a 9mm Steyr magazine, as well. I can show you pictures of a Colt 9x23mm magazine, but like you, I have always used .38 Super mags.

I suspect that the only difference in any of the 3 would be in the stamping on the floorplate.

As usual, I am late to the party when it comes to the 9x23mm. I was going through some personal issues at the time it was introduced, and have absolutely no memory of the cartridge until a few years ago, even though I have been a .38m Super advocate, owner, and reloader for almost 3 decades.

As you suggest, my experience has been that extractor issues are minimal. Some people get upset when you say "bend" the extractor. However, if you say, "adjust", or "tweak" the extractor, all is well. :roll:

ClarkEMyers

I've seen 9X23 marked magazines on E-Bay. The price was conversation piece high but likely did not reflect the true rarity - too rich for my blood but not outrageous - about the same as a good two-tone or a Colt .22 Ace.

grendelbane

I recently saw an entire conversion kit on E-Bay! It included barrel, slide, bushing, spring, ejector and magazine.

I am curious about this. When did Colt try to market this? For how much? My experience with caliber conversions on Gov't model pistols is that it is going to take a lot more work than just installing drop in parts.

Of course, I did just that when I converted my .38 Super to 9mm, but that is the simplest conversion possible, and I was lucky.

Some times I wonder about Colt.

louishob2

Glunks ? Is that a typo, or do I sense a touch of disdain ?

Dane Burns

9x23 is doing fine. In fact there is a Colt 9x23 for sale in the foums at this moment :lol: .

Bill Caldwell

louishob2,
I can assure You and Everybody else I have no Disdain for any weapon that can cause Me great bodily harm....grievious injury or death.....Whether it be a sharpened wood pole, An 11 cent ice pick from 1909...A RG 38 special or a Glunk model 1 thru 99 or how many ever models there are...and whatever model it might be.


Do I hold a glunk in the same esteem that I do a 1911/2011? Certainly not! Not with standin' how good Dave Sirvegy and Julie Goloski do competin' with 'em.

If I have THE CONFRONTATION with THE PUNK....said punk carryin' any of the above mentioned weapons from the stick to the Glunk...will My actions be any different than if the punk was carryin' the finest 1911 ever made? Most certainly not! I'll try to be faster and more accurate than I've ever been before. Like that old sayin' "A rose by anyother name"? A weapon by any other name.....

I've shot glunks over the years.... first real experience was the Glock armourer school, Murray State College. Old friend and I were handlin' one...Old friend is a Hell of a 1911 Hand. Old friend said "Glunkiest Damm Thing I've Ever Handled". From that time and forever more ,...right or wrong ...they will always be glunks to Me.

If Yaw'll will go to Wild Bill Caldwell ...Veiw From the Hills..Read Peace ,Goodwill and Rain....You might get a clearer understandin' of why some of Us older Hands feel the way We do concernin' certain pistols.

Thanks'
Bill Caldwell

pangris

9x23 is winning friends and influencing people. I bought a factory Springer in 9x23 and then had a 9x19 nowlin fitted and it became one of my favorites. I then had a 9x23 Nowlin fitted to my 9x19 STI. Now I'm looking at building a custom 9x23 commander. I've done my best to educate people about the round and the easy interchange with the 9x19... IMHO it is *the* round for the 1911 when coupled with the 9x19 for cheap/easy practice.

Paul

10mm

I have two Colt magazines with the floorplates marked for the 9x23 caliber. If anyone really wants me too I can take a snapshot. I bought one from one of the gun forums a few years back and another one about three months ago from Ebay. It was about $25 to $30 shipped new in the Colt blistercard.

The first one's follower broke and I replaced it with a CMC follower and the second one I have not had a chance to try out yet. As near as I can tell the mags are no different than the .38 Super mags other than the markings.

FWIW, in my 9x23 I use mostly Metalform magazines and they have always worked wonderfully. I also have one Wilson Combat .38 Super magazine that I use but despite all of the hype I see no real advantage over the Metalform mags.

pinotguy

Now I'm looking at building a custom 9x23 commander. I've done my best to educate people about the round and the easy interchange with the 9x19... IMHO it is *the* round for the 1911 when coupled with the 9x19 for cheap/easy practice.

Paul[/quote]

Paul,

I couldn't agree more with your assessment about 9x23. The shape of the round just seems like the perfect match for the 1911 format. I've tried, on occasion, to spread the word but it's amazing at some of the reactions you get once the number "9" is mentioned. Now, I'm much more selective as to who I get into detail with.

I'm curious about your 9x23 Commander build. Mine is in the final stages and I expect to have it within the month. What ideas do you have in mind and what components/small parts are you considering?

louishob2

I've seen several (well three anyway) Colt 9x23's on GunsAmerica.com and GunAuction.com. They're going for around $900. Everyone says that the 1911 format is perfect for the 9x23, but I'm looking for a double stack. That spells custom frames and mucho dinero. So, here's my latest scheme. I'm impressed with the Witness P Carry series from EAA. They have compact steel slides and full size polymer frames. There's no 38 Super in this series, but the 38 Super magazines from the full size steel frame EAA Witness weapons should work. I'm thinking of buying the 10 MM Witness P Carry. It uses a 15 round magazine. Somewhere down the road I will buy the compact 9x19 slide/barrel from EAA along with their 18 shot capacity 38 Super magazines. With some barrel work on the 9x19 and probably a stronger recoil spring, voila, I'll have a frame that will support high capacity 9x23 and 10 MM. One nice thing about EAA, they tend to mix and match well. If this actually works, I'll have a 9x23 and a 10 MM and still have change back from $900.

pinotguy

I've seen the 9x23's you mentioned as well. IMHO, those prices seem unreasonable and my guess is that the seller's are trying to capitalize on the collectability angle. I've contemplated a hi-cap 9x23 Commander myself. I'd like to go with a Caspian frame, Caspian's hi-cap specific small parts, Caspian slide, Barsto barrel, and Caspian magazines. You could literally have 20 rounds of 9x23 - 19+1 - at your fingertips. Talk about peace of mind. . .

grendelbane

I'm happy this weekend! I got my 9x23 put together last night. Just fired a few shots so far, but it has been 100%.

I have not settled on a spring yet. My handloads are a bit more conservative than Winchester Silvertips. The spring I have seems more appropriate for my handloads. That precious Winchester brass ejects itself at a respectable velocity!

I have been using Power Pistol, and love most of its attributes, except for its flash. I think I will try VV3n37, having heard good things about it. I am also willing to enertain suggestions for other powders.

I am also willing to entertain suggestions for another bullet. The Remington 124 JHPs don't hold together too well at those velocities.

buddy_fuentes

There are many good powders out there that work well. I have 3N37 and have had some good loads with it. Ramshot, HS 6, 7, 231, and even Bullseye have produced some really good loads. My personal favorite is WW 231. I don't load very hot for most of my shooting and found that I get some pretty good loads with 231. I use it for 9 mm, 9x23. .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. It is a little smokey on the indoor range, but I can deal with that.

I have some jacketed HP in 125 and 147 that I loaded up warm and I used V V 3n37 and HS 6. You need to just play with it and see what you like for your personal use.

I have a 16# spring in one and a 14# in the other. I intend to try a 10 or 12 the next time I order from Brownell's. The real heavy springs seem to snap my pistol forward and down.

Buddy

grendelbane

I have a fair amount of experience with 231 in light .38 Super loads. I like everything about Power Pistol but the flash.

Things were much simpler years ago. If you wanted to load your auto pistol cases to warm levels, you used Unique.

There is about a 120 FPS difference between my handloads and Winchester factory loads. (Plus 1 grain of bullet weight.) Memory is a terrible guide to the past, but I am pretty sure that it was a 14 pound spring that I ended up using. It seemed just about perfect with my handloads, but the hotter Winchester seemed to be ejecting with the intention of landing in the next county.

Some how, I slept through the introduction of the 9x23, but I am making up for lost time now!

grendelbane

What a difference 2 weeks can make! I now have a load that can surpass Winchester Factory 9x23, (though I am going to drop back a little and just try and equal it.)

It uses Power Pistol, so I would still like to find a powder whic produces less flash. Of the ones available in this area I think that I am going to try VV 3n37 next. The Speer Gold Dot bullets intended for the 357 SIG work quite well in this cartridge.

It quite nicely complements my .41 Magnum. Why am I cursed with this interest in orphan cartridges? :evil:

viesczy

Just buy the caliber conversion for .38 Super for that 10mm, the 9x19 slide idea won't work... unless I read that the wrong way. I have a full sized steel .38 Super Witness and I've put their 10mm conversion on my .38 Super... yes it was converted to 9x23!

Derek

louishob2

I thought about buying the 38 Super conversion, but I was a little concerned about bullet shapes. The 38 Super is semi-rimmed and has a fairly straight wall. The 9x23 is rimless and tapered. I was afraid I'd have extraction and accuracy problems firing a 9x23 in 38 Super barrel/slide.

I talked with one of the gunsmiths at EAA and he said the compact 9MM conversion kit will work on the 10MM P Carry frame. The problem is, the conversion kits currently are designed for the steel frame Witnesses. So the compact 9MM conversion kit on the 10MM P Carry leaves you with a "hybrid". The resulting pistol won't have the Novak style sights and the bull barrel of a true P Carry. However, I was told by one of the executives at EAA that P Carry parts should be available shortly. Apparently the whole of Italy takes August off, so manufacturing doesn't start up again until September.

By the way, if you ever have to deal with EAA, try to bypass customer service. They go out of their way to be as unhelpful as possible.

viesczy

I had my 38 Super barrel reamed to 9x23 dimensions and BOOM 18 rounds of 9x23! I would worry about reliable extraction/ejection with a 9x19 slide.

Agreed about EAA and their customer service.

When they first introduced the 10mm I sent them a polite email as to the ETA, I got a brusque reply that the 10mms would be available @ the end of Summer. I politely pointed out that Summer ended in September and that it was nearly Halloween. So they replied back that in Florida when the hurricane season ended is when Summer was over with an a tone that basically send that I shoud take a flying leap. My reply was when did Florida start determining when seasons start and end! :-? You bet, I've not picked up another EAA product either!

I sure do like the idea of the 10mm though...

Derek

louishob2

Thanks for the info ! I'll try the 38 Super conversion route.

All I asked customer service was "when would they have conversion kits for the P Carry line". After minutes of explaining to her that the kits on the website have a different slide/barrel configuration than the P Carry, she was finally convinced that they didn't have conversion kits for the P Carry. So once again I ask nicely, "when will you get them ?". She says "I have no idea, why don't you try searching for one on the Internet ?". Call me crazy, but if the company that manufactures the pistol doesn't have the conversion kit, what chance would I have finding one surfing the net ? Basically, I was told to take a flying leap, and, if at all possible, when you do land, make sure it isn't in Florida !

louishob2

Was barrel reaming the only thing you had to do to go to 9x23 ? No recoil spring changes ?

viesczy

I do have a 20lb Wolf spring, or whichever the heaviest Wolf makes for the EAA, in my Witness now, I think the stock for the 38 S is 12-14lbs. There was FRIGHTENING slide movment with the stock spring in it.

Right now, I'm really thinking about getting a Kimber HDII in .38 S (or the new lightweight Colt Commander .38 S) to have a more compact 9x23.

Derek

louishob2

I need help on this. Several folks have mentioned reaming out the 38 Super to use 9x23 ammo. Ok, I understand reaming comparing the bases of the two cartridges, the 9x23 is .394 and the 38 Super is .384. However, at the case mouth, the 9x23 is smaller, .381 vs. .384. Nothing to ream there, you really need to add some metal. I realize these differences are tiny, but it would seem that a 9x23 in a reamed 38 Super barrel would be a tad "loose" at the case mouth. Does this affect accuracy any ?

buddy_fuentes

I have shot 9x23 in a Super and did not notice much if any difference in accuracy at the close ranges I was shooting. I shot it from 10 to 15 yards and did not shoot that many rounds. I have 2 9x23 pistols and have not tried a Super to see if it would fit, but I don't think it will.

Mr. Wild Bill told me that my 9x23's would shoot the 9 mm round, too. I tried it and it shot very well out to 15 yards. I haven't had a chance to try it at longer ranges, but I bet it will do pretty darn good.

The 9x23 is such a good round it is a shame that you can use it for major in Open division and not Limited, too. I would rather have the 9x23 Winchester in a fight than a .40 S&W. It shoots flat and has a very easy to manage recoil impulse.

Great defense round...somebody will wake up one day and build a small auto chambered in 9x23.

Buddy

bhysjulien

What does the group think about trying to convince a smaller or newer manufacturer to produce a 9x23? Maybe someone like Taurus who is just getting into 1911's. Their Compact model in 9x23 would be desirable. Rock Island Armory might be a good candidate. Any other suggestions?

grendelbane

You might consider Dan Wesson. They have made several 10mm's.

ClarkEMyers

I notice Midway is clearing 9X23 brass - no great discount but that's true of brass these days - last month's price is steal compared to this month.

I'm sort of nervous about scarcities as brass becomes more expensive and any slow moving item may not be made - historically I've had as much or more luck finding 9X23 when I wanted it as 6mm Remington - but it's easier to figure I've got enough 6mm Remington or .376 Steyr to shoot the barrel out and there are cases I could reform. For 9X23 there are no other realistic choices - I can see myself using a different pistol for a school or a season of gaming or a major lost brass match if I can't confidently replace the brass in advance. Maybe a move to 38TJ now that Starline and Hornady both offer it with Mr. Jarrett behind it.

I find less Winchester 9x23 loaded ammunition in either version on the shelf than I used to - I used to find most places had some 9X23 Silvertip though they sold but little of it; today almost nobody I wander into stocks it for over the counter casual sale.

Corbon is downright encouraging but I do prefer boxes of 50. Any thoughts on Corbon DPX vs PowerBall vs JHP? I expect to move to DPX as I run down my stocks of Silvertips but that will be another couple years if I ration.

Anybody else shooting something else a little more and rationing the 9X23?