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Old 02-04-2002, 07:32 AM   #1
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This has probably ben asked before. Can I safely shoot 38 Supers in my 9X23? It is a Colt 9X23, all stock.
 
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Old 02-04-2002, 09:28 AM   #2
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Yes with a 38super barrel
 
Old 02-04-2002, 09:58 AM   #3
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It is my understanding - from the builder of my 9x23 - that I can fire .38 Super and 9mm Largo in a 9x23 barrel.

It is the opposite; i.e., trying to shoot 9x23 in a .38 Super, which invites disaster.
 
Old 02-04-2002, 07:48 PM   #4
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They function just fine in all my guns with the right recoil spring.
 
Old 02-04-2002, 08:19 PM   #5
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I haven't any problems shooting both out of my 9x23 springfield..my 38 super comp gun shoots both , just have to adjust the extractor tension.

The 38 super chamber is .004 bigger at the front and the 9x23 is .002 bigger in the back.

I have seen some have function troubles cause they got dirty..but no other problems.
My firing pins are all fitted to avoid primer bleed and I use small rifle primers on my reloads..except if they are light loads then regular pistol primers.
 
Old 02-05-2002, 11:26 PM   #6
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I shot 4 rounds of 38 super out of a 9x23 barrel, and won't be doing it again. I checked the cases and they were bulged noticeably at the back end. I just don't think I'll take any more chances with a case rupturing or something worse happening.
 
Old 02-06-2002, 07:59 AM   #7
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Sounds more like a chamber problem than anything else. I just received a 9x23 race gun from the builder (SVI); 200 rounds of .38 Super was also shipped. SVI uses Schuemann barrels exclusively, and these provide full support for the cartridge.
 
Old 02-20-2002, 03:23 PM   #8
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Just FYI, it was a brand new 9x23 SVI barrel (ramped) that I used to shoot the 38 supers out of. I don't know how big of a deal those bulged cases were. Has that ever hapened to anyone else?
 
Old 08-06-2002, 09:30 AM   #9
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I'll go flipside

Came across a nifty 38 super, but I'm already set up for reloading 9x23. Can I just shoot 9x23 out of the 38 super? Can I do anything to the chamber so it's for 9x23? Do I need to shop for a 9mm or 9x23 new barrel?
 
Old 08-19-2002, 05:47 PM   #10
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Birch, that depends on the gun. I shoot 9x23 out of my 38 Super EAA Witness. The witness barrel runs the same outside diameter in their 38 Super model as they do in .45acp. It is practically a bull barrel. I do need a stronger recoil spring though and will be going with the Sprinco Recoil Reduction system. ( captured second spring on full length guide rod that comes into play at the end of slide travel)
 
Old 08-20-2002, 03:24 AM   #11
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you can shoot Largo but will only beable to fit 3rds. in ur mag.
 
Old 08-26-2002, 09:50 AM   #12
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On the other hand, if you use largo brass, you can load to 9X23 specs and fill your magazine. Nobody....NOBODY fires commercial ammo if they have a loading press and limited ammunition funds. Just keep your loadings reasonable.
I have also had pretty good luck using shortened .223 brass. Again, keep loads reasonable.
 
Old 08-26-2002, 05:33 PM   #13
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what case length do trim largos to , they are .900 new !
can they be loaded once first.
this question is for john ?
 
Old 08-26-2002, 05:43 PM   #14
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Factory 38 supers will fire out of any 9x23 barrel, it headspaces on the mouth. The old 38 super barrels headspaced on the rim. The problem comes in when you attempt to shoot reloads. Allright if they are from the same gun but eventually the 38 super case will rupture causing super face. The 9x23 case is much stronger in the web. If you keep bulging the 38 super case it will only be a matter of time. You can shoot all those calibers out of the 9x23 chamber in a pinch, but don't try to reload them.
 
Old 08-26-2002, 06:58 PM   #15
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23mm is .9062". Therefore, the largo cases are of an appropriate length.
The .38 super is .384" at the mouth of the chamber, while the 9mm cases are .391 at the mouth of the chamber. Bad idea to fire supers even once in a 9X23.
The largo is a giant question mark. Spanish chambers and cartridge sizes are all over the spectrum. If your largo cases have to expand .007" to reach 9mm cartridge size, plus chamber tolerance, sooner or later you will split one. Therefore, the most prudent course of action is to fire them in a largo chamber. That means, you will have to substitute another barrel in 9mm, chambered for the largo temporarily to safely accommodate these cartridges.
These are from SAAMI specs. and obviously, the spread is beyond comprehension. 9mm parabellum chambers vary from tight to extra loose with too much headspace. (This is in new chambers.)
I'm even having problems with CP 9X23 cases in my Colt 9X23 chambers on the second loading. Colt's 9X23 chambers are the largest 9X23 chambers in diameter. Aftermarket barrels with "match chambers" are tighter than the Colts. Pressures generated by maximum loads are erasing the headstamp from even my Winchester cases, though they are taking it better than the CP's. I feel that I'm about to abandon the Colt barrels and try another brand.
Rumor has it that the 9X23 was originally a shortened .223 case. Well, a new 9X23 Winchester case mikes .389 at the extractor groove and a new .223 case mikes .374", so another urban legend goes down in flames..
Now that 9X23 brass is rapidly disappearing from dealer's offerings, it will soon be a problem of enormous proportion. If Winchester does not produce more 9X23 cases soon, this little dream of ours will become a wildcat proposition.
 
Old 08-27-2002, 03:46 AM   #16
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I have fired 9mm,9 largo,9x23, 9x21, 9 super comp, 38 acp, 38 super, 38 TJ, 38 MMC, and 38 super comp. Accuracy was all acceptable for government work. I have had no problems with the first firings of these. The difference in a 9mm bullet and a 38 super bullet is .001. All mouth chambers should be within .001, in a perfect world. I also load the 9x23 with .355 and .356 bullets and they each shoot fine. I also load my 9mm's with the same mix of bullets.

However when I reload I will only use Winchester Brass, I feel it is the only brass that can stand up to the pressures of the full power 9x23. The other cartridges I reload for practice using 9x23 dies and a power factor of 140. I also use these reject reloads for local IDPA matches that are the lost brass variety. The good brass I save for major Matches.

As I said before the problem with the 9x23 is that there is no standard in chamber sizes, they are all over the place. The best thing to do is make all the 9x23 chambers the same. My Colt, SA, Nowlin, and Bar-Sto chambers were all different so I reamed the rears to match the Barsto since it was the biggest rear diameter at .395. The Colts rear chamber was .393 and the Nowlin was also .393, but the Colts mouth was .384 and the Nowlins was .386. Now the Springfield factory 9x23 was .387 at the mouth and .391 at the rear. Throw into that Colt #2 chamber and that was .383 at the mouth and .391 at the rear. I didn't get into freebore, that would be too confusing on all of these chambers. I Liked the BarSto chamber the best so I reamed all the rears to match this chamber. Now when I reload any round fired out of any gun they work in all my guns. The sixing die can't get all the way down on teh casings and I had problems early on with cases being fired out of the Bar-Sto chambers were getting hung up in my other chambers. Once you crimp the bullets in, you have the same mouth size give or take .001".

As far as carry ammo goes, I use CCI 9mm Largo in my Smaller guns and WW silver tips in the full size and Commander guns.
 
Old 08-27-2002, 07:18 AM   #17
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First, I recently bought 1,000 .38 super 130 grain bullets from Midway, and they are .355" diameter. (Miked with a Mitutoyo digital electronic mic that reads to hundred thousandths of an inch.)
Second, you didn't tell us what kind of a barrel you fired all of this conglomeration through. Who made it? Is it ramped or plain? What brand of reamer was used to chamber it?
Gentlemen: DO NOT try this with a Colt barrel. Sooner or later you will encounter that elusive weak piece of brass and we'll have something exciting to talk about here.
 
Old 08-27-2002, 12:58 PM   #18
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I've fired most of the odd stuff through a Bar-Sto unramped barrel and the SA ramped barrel just to see what it would do. I do not make a habit of it but if I am at a Match and need ammo I know what I can use. I found a source for WW38 acp for 9.00 a box, I use it in a pinch if I don't have anything else. Now remember I do not load full power 9x23's in anything but Winchester cases.
 
Old 08-27-2002, 07:24 PM   #19
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Good discussion and really good information about various chambers. I am shooting a gun that is made for .38 Super auto. It is the EAA Witness. The only way I know how to mic the chamber is to buy casting material from Brownells ( can't remember what it is called) cast the chamber, pull out the cast and measure it. If there are alternative methods, I would like to know. The rear of my chamber seems really loose for .38 Super rounds. I guess they made it that way for "relaibility". When I drop a 9x23 in the chamber it fits just a little tighter. (better- less slop). Firing 9x23 in the gun, shows no signs of excessive pressure. So far I have only shot Winchester 135 grain silver tip hollow points. ( factory loads). I plan on loading 9x23 in the not too distant future. Would it be a no no to use the .38 super Carbide dies I already own, or should I go and find some 9x23 carbide dies. My plan was to use the .38 Super dies, but I would like to defer that decsion to you more experienced 9x23 shooters.
 
Old 08-28-2002, 03:21 AM   #20
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You could use 9x23 dies or 9mm dies. The basic difference is the sizing die. I had an early Hornady and it was too tight. Hornady set me another die N/C and that was perfect for my application, however earlier on I used 9mm dies. I use a 9mm/38super taper crimp die on the last station. In my target loads I use 4.7 231 under a Montana gold 130 or a Zero 130 Jacketed bullet and Federal small pistol primer. For the full power its the same bullet with the posted load out of the Winchester book with Federal small rifle primers.
 
Old 08-28-2002, 07:22 AM   #21
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Brownells lists a bismuth alloy called Cerrolow that melts at a very low temperature...about that of boiling water. Just push a loose wad of cotton down ahead of the chamber, pour in melted Cerrolow, let it harden and pop it out with a cleaning rod. Then mike it.
 
Old 10-11-2002, 10:17 AM   #22
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JM...

You've shot regular 9x19 out of a 9x23? I put a 9x19 snap cap in and I hear the thud, but didn't even think of firing a live 9x19 rd in a barsto bbl.
 
Old 10-12-2002, 09:23 AM   #23
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WOW! Shooting 38 Super out of a 9x23 barrel?? Or vice "worsa".

The closest comparison statement one can make of the 9x23 case is "An elongated 9mm Parabellum". That said even the case head is .002 smaller on a 9x23. However small of a consideration this difference may be, it's an important extraction factor and breech face fit.
There are other considerations such as throat diameter, freebore length, lead angle and headspace I won't even attempt to shoot my mouth off about.

I can only be sure of what I can measure and approved existing diagrams from SAAMI and Winchester in this case provide an international point of reference.
Anyone can chambera barrel to whatever specs they want. And I'm pretty sure you'll be able to fire other funky calibers out of that same barrel too. That's not what I want.
If you want to shoot a particular caliber out of your gun, chamber it for THAT caliber. I hand load ammunition not only to save cost but to taylor a perfect fitting cartridge to MY chamber for best results.

Now back to what I wanted to say. The .38 Super is a STRAIGHT WALL CASE. No taper. Not to mention .0040 larger at the case mouth and .0140 at the rim.
The only similarity between the two cases is they are the same length. That's it!
You shouldn't even be able to fit a 38 Super in a properly cut 9x23 chamber, lest you slam dunk it. As far as .223 cases go, they may have been the start of a great idea, but NO.

The 9x23 is tapered. Just like the 9x19. Same case mouth opening, same base diameter, same extraction groove, only .9000 long.

The 9x23 case tapers .011 over a distance of .7000 to produce a certain angle to be met inside the bore. The ultimate Kahuna fit. The 9x19 has a .011 taper as well but at a different angle. That's because of a different Base-to-Case Mouth distance. In other words, you cannot even use a 9x19 reamer simply to elongate the chamber into a 9x23 accurately. You'd end up with a larger rim circumference on your chamber. i.e. .3940 instead of .3920 as per WIN specs.

I also understood someone firing a 9x19 out of a 9x23 chamber?? If so I consider you very lucky. Your cartridge must have stopped on the highest point of entry into the chamber, the base diameter area of the case, and the rim being .004 larger not sinking deeper, the chamber taper may have helped in directing the bullet toward the rifling, but please don't do that again. Talk about freebore length.

So far I know of a Nowlin reamer, WIN reamer, Colt has their own that nobody sems to know what size it is, Bar-Sto is different and soon to come there will a RUMAC 9x23 Reamer.
 
Old 10-12-2002, 01:40 PM   #24
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O.k., I'll bite. What's a RUMAC?
 
Old 10-12-2002, 04:11 PM   #25
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Ahh, grasshopper, what's a RUMAC you ask? I AM RUMAC.

Examining the varience in 9x23 chambers to date, I find none adequate to exploit this rounds' capabilities with the WIN case.

I've studied this round and it's chamber(s) at large. I'm not as think as you confused I am any more.

Starting with the WIN case, 'cause it's the strongest one, I decided on a custom reamer built to specs I believe will turn out a better chamber in a new barrel. This I call the "RUMAC 9x23 WIN" Chambering.

Why am I doing this? Because it needs to be done. And because I can.

Newly chambered barrels will come with a sizeing die. A seating die is easily made from the finish chamber reamer as well.

Simply put, no re-chambering, no variables, no 38 Super or Comps , TJs largos or 223s. No confusion. Only 9x23 WIN.

By the way, I think reference is given to the 223s as the first 9x23 chambered to support rifle pressures because of it's thicker webbing (Super Cooper), not exact case/chamber size for instance.

I hope I'm not too far out of my league here, I feel like a stranger, but thanks for reading. Let me know what you think.
 
Old 10-12-2002, 07:43 PM   #26
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Just some random thoughts: Will it chamber factory loaded 9x23 ammo or is it a wildcat? Are you going to make carbide resizing dies or steel ones? Damn, I still can't snatch that pebble! :lol:
 
Old 10-12-2002, 09:03 PM   #27
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An accompanying sizeing die matched to your chamber is maybe like having a chronograph knowing what your handloads are doing.
The option is there for the perfectionist types, extended case life, increased accuracy, higher, safer operating pressures. Adequately full length re-sizeing even if the WIN case web is thicker, will give you a smoother fit.

You should certainly be able to stoke it with Factory WIN 9x23s, but without the convenience for a dual use barrel.
I believe uniformity of the cartridge to chamber excentricity keeps unwanted deposits at bay and escaping gases non-exsistent. Less fouling. It facilitates extraction with reduced drag.

Titanium Nitride inserts with the dies, I believe.
 
Old 10-13-2002, 06:16 PM   #28
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RUMAC,
9x23's as is shoot better than most shooters can hold. Maybe 1 in 10,000 (just a guess) can out shoot the gun.

You must be, or better find one of the top machinests in the world to make this reamer and to chamber your barrel. -one- interchangable pilots as bore sizes vary. How close you match the bore will have a lot to do with chamber roundness. Two most old South Bend, La Blonds, Clausing will have .001 or more T.I.R. Gonna have to have a lathe with .0001 T.I.R. or less - I've never seen one. Could go on and on. Talkin' percision like this is easy. Doin' it is hard and expensive. Kind of like when we raced, "How fast you want to go? How much money you got?"

I built the chamber reamer for my 9x23 usin' more free bore than the Nowlin or Win 9x23. Will chamber 38 supers an shoot with no problems - Brass varies from batch to batch, made by the same manufactor. Not much is exactly round nor does it need to be.

If you are the perfectionest type, can find a perfectionest machinest, a very accurate lathe and time and money, it can be done.... to be able to say my chamber is more accurate than your's. Is it worthwhile for most of us? I don't think so. That's just my opinion and worth about two Hoots up a Holler.

Bill Caldwell
Wild Bill Caldwell Tactical Weaponry
 
Old 10-13-2002, 09:40 PM   #29
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Prrffft, money? What's that?

Now don't hurt me. I'm trying to get to 2000 and I don't want to get into a pissing match with you.

Neither Clymer reamers are any good.

My chamber IS better than yours. 38 Supers don't fit.
I'm pretty sure a Largos would fit, it would also stick out the back a wee bit. Nothing a 17.5 lb spring can't handle with aluminum cases. Think about it.

. . . to answer this soon, I've tore my 38Super down, ordered a 9X23 ramped barrel, 9X23 chamber reamer. Won't take long to fit barrel to slide, got an extra Briley bushing. We'll see.

. . . Can't answer that one right now. Have a 9X23 barrel & reamer coming. May not answer anything. May just create more questions.

. . . I built the chamber reamer for my 9x23 usin' more free bore than the Nowlin or Win 9x23. Will chamber 38 supers an shoot with no problems - Brass varies from batch to batch, made by the same manufactor. Not much is exactly round nor does it need to be.

If you are the perfectionest type, can find a perfectionest machinest, a very accurate lathe and time and money, it can be done.... to be able to say my chamber is more accurate than your's.
[/i]
 
Old 10-14-2002, 06:08 PM   #30
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Vladimir,
No hurt intended- feelings or otherwise- not lookin' for a match of any kind, certainly not the kind you mention.

After tryin' 2 different chamber reamers, I didn't like what I got with either one. I made mine usin' more free bore.

I don't think a perfect chamber plays a big part in the 9x23. Black gas pipe would probably be okay, chambered 9x23, if 9x23 Win. brass is used.

My experience with this: the closer you get to 2000 F.P.S. the more primer problems you will have. Primers cratering, primer pieces tyin' up the firin' pin. Primers backin' out. You can hit 2000 with the 124 gr bullets range ..... but you have to solve the primer problem for it to run reliable.

What is wrong with Clymer reamers?

Bill Caldwell
Wild Bill Caldwell Tactical Weaponry
 
Old 10-17-2002, 09:46 PM   #31
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38 super/9x23 no problemo

I have a 70 series 9mm 5" built recently by Jim Garthwaite.
It has a 9x23 Bar-Sto ramped barrel with a chamber tweaked to handle .38 stupid.

Why? Well I don't reload anymore and I can buy new Aguila .38 super 130 FMJ @1150 fps for $7 a 50 rd box, delivered to my door. Makes a great practice round for the 1450 fps Winchester factory "carry" loads that are NOT $7 a box..

The gun has fixed sights. Only difference I can tell accuracy wise is the 9x23 shoots about 2.5" higher than the 38 stupor. No pressure signs on the 9x23. Damn gun feeds better than any gun I have ever shot I think..something about that cartridge. It hasn't replaced any .45's yet, but it sure is fun to shoot and is working its way into the lineup.
 
Old 10-18-2002, 06:41 AM   #32
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Is Bar-Sto making a 9x23 barrel or did you start with a 9x19 and re-chamber? If he is, which 9x23 chamber specs is he using?
 
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