spcwes

I have noticed a lot of people have been talking about this cartridge becoming more popular and Mike over at DoubleTap ammo thought enough of it to start manufacturing it via factory loadings in several different bullet types and weights. Some of it is at the least to say very impressive. I would like to see if anyone knows of some weapons or companies that can be or already are chambered in that caliber. Mike offers barrel conversions for Glock 20s for that chambering. This is the slowest offering he makes.

The highly anticipated 9X25 loadings from DoubleTap will be shipping out on June
9th, 2004! This day will mark the first ever factory loading for this cartridge!
Starting June 3rd we will be taking orders for this ammunition.

Caliber: 9X25

Bullet: 147gr. Gold Dot

Ballistics: 1550fps/ 785 ftlbs - 6" BarSto barrel

Box of 50rds.

He offers a 95gr FMJ out of a 6" barrel running 2000FPS with 844FTLBS. These would be great rounds for LE and to think about chambering new sub-guns in. Any info would be great on some handgun options other than the Glock 20 conversion. I would like to find tactical style pistols that will be very reliable. Check out the performance of these rounds out on his site www.doubletapammo.com


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jester_s1

That's a bit warm for defensive use. The 9x25 was developed to give comps a lot of gas and pressure on open guns. On a standard auto it would be pretty harsh to shoot and split times would suffer quite a bit. Everybody has an opinion and most aren't worth much, but mine says the .40 and .45 are pretty much it for defensive autos. They are controllable and have adequate stopping power. 9mm is there for those who want less kick. What could anyone need beyond that?

spcwes

Like you said everyone has an opinion and I like the 45 about the most and use the .40 S&W for duty. The 9X25 has near the terminal ballistics of a high power rifle and that would be great if you could put it into a handgun and it be controllable. The biggest thing I can do is answer the question when you asked what more could anyone need. I personally think that handgun calibers are what we get by with because there is nothing better to offer in that area. I from personal experience or from the personal experience of others will tell you that there is no round that is to powerful short of something that explodes on impact for defensive purposes because handgun calibers fail and that is a fact. The more power in a handgun you can get and control the better. I have been told by people that have fired the 9X25 that it is not bad at all in the right platform as far as recoil and controllability. If something like that could be done in a weapon like a good 1911 or the Glock 20 platform and it worked well enough to be called reliable then it would be a step in the right direction in MHO. Something like this with the type of bullets offered would be great for a sub-gun platform as well. You could get high-power rifle ballistics from your handgun and sub-gun and run the same ammo which would be a major plus. Thanks for your reply.


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Brent Chambers

I think the 9x25 is less than ideal for LE to say the least.

A full power 10mm takes practice and dedication to stay on top of- IMHO a .45 ACP does as well. When I go from my 9x19 IDPA single stack back to my carry 10mm I don't have a problem, but I've been doing it a long time and despite that I still have to "refocus" so to speak.

I shot an Open gun in 9x25 once and despite the noise it wasn't too bad- but in a Glock 20 or something like that I would think of it more as a hunting caliber- certainly not one capable of fast and accurate shooting.

As for as offering rifle ballistics- that simply isn't true. Few if any cartridges chambered in semi-auto pistols are going to come anywhere near rifle ballistics, and the 9x25 isn't going much farther than the .41 Magnum- a great cartridge, but a far cry from something as common as a .308 or the like in terms of terminal peformance.

Again, just my thoughts. Good luck-

Brent

spcwes

Go to the double tap web site above and check the stats on that round they offer and it is close to short barreled rifle power. I do understand power and these loads offer velocity and power and that is something that most pistols only do the least of. One of the loads offered is a 115gr Gold dot. Here is the stats. That would be great if you could like you said control the situation.

Caliber : 9X25

Bullet : 115gr. Gold Dot

Ballistics : 1800fps/ 827 ft.lbs

Brent Chambers

We'll have to agree to disagree on this-

a good .41 Mag handload with a 210 gr. bullet makes about the same ftbs of energy as the load you mention- with a quality hunting bullet like the XTP or the like you'll get excellent performance for sure in a hunting application.

Likewise the 115 gr. load you quote would be impressive, though by nature of the relatively light weight of the bullet it would probably not be an effective as a hunting round than a heavier handgun bullet making the same approximate energy.

Where you and I disagree is calling 800+ ftbs of energy near rifle like ballisics- for two reasons. One, even looking at modest cartridges (by today's standards) like the .308 class of rifle rounds they massively out power the 9x25.

Secondly, the nature of rifle bullets (shape, design, sectional density, etc.) makes them far more lethal when striking flesh than handgun bullets. The wound channel and so on that even an average quality rifle bullet like the Remington Core-Lokt produces outclasses any handgun cartridge a semi-auto pistol can launch by leaps and bounds.

Don't get me wrong, you're right, the velocity potential of the 9x25 is fantastic. It outdoes one of my personal favorites the 9x23. The price you pay for those ballistics is steep (you may agree with me after you've shot and heard a 9x25 shot) and again, IMHO it, like any other conventional handgun cartridge, doesn't even approach the lethality of rifle ammunition.

Just my 2 cents- thanks for the debate.

Brent

spcwes

No I understand that it is not like a rifle but look at like a 223 ballistics from like a 16" barrel and then imagine it flying out a 6" barrel. There is going to be a serious reduction in energy and velocity. Although it is not a pistol cartridge it would still be leaps and bounds above any pistol as far as velocity and energy. This in my opinion would be close in power and velocity of a 223 out of a 6” barrel and that is what I referred to as close to the power of a high-power rifle. I did not mean like a .308 semi-loader. I just meant that bullet design and speed make for a real good show in terms of incapacitation. I like a 45 for a good stopper round but for all practical and tactical purposes the 308 with a bullet close to 80gr lighter is A LOT more effective. Although there may be a heard of people to come out the woodworks on that comment most have never seen the difference, I have. I personally would take a 223 with ballistic tips over any pistol round made but if you had a cartridge that could start to fill the gap and do it in a delivery system that works for combat in a handgun then it would be great day. If they could put the 115gr to the 127gr load in a platform that could launch it around 1700 to 1800fps and still be controllable it would be one of the most furious loads offered in a combat pistol platform. I would just love to see something along these lines.

Jim Higginbotham

Both the 9X25 and the .40 Super have some interesting possibilities.

however the trick would be to get a bullet that will hold together for their near carbine velocities (the .40 Super launches a 135 at around 1800 fps!)

My guess is that a Barnes X or a bullet like a Nosler Partition or some sort of heavy jacket soft point might work. But I suspect that driving even premium pistol bullets some 500 fps over their design speed is not a good thing - though you might certainly get some extremely dangerous looking wounds in many cases.

Intersting stuff...but I am still packing my .45 (a change in status and locale for my daily haunts might cause me to rethink that).

Press on,
Jim

Brent Chambers

Jim:

Good call on the Barnes X-bullet. I was lucky enough to get a pre-sale sample of their 155 gr. .40/10mm bullet to mess around with a while back.

I loaded them at the absolute top of what the 10mm can do and launched them from a 610. At those speeds the bullet worked great. I agree that they could probably handle a lot more, but I didn't have a gun that could get them any faster.

Brent

spcwes

Yea, I am with ya on that one Jim, but it is intriguing to say the least. I think the 5.7mm has is going in the right direction.

tk064

Not trying to be macho or anything, but to me the recoil of the 10mm and the 9x25 is mostly hype by the gun writers. I bought the first colt 10 and have loved them since.

When us old farts (well I'm only 45, been a cop 21) started we were all shooting 357 in the Smith K frame. The Remmington 125 and 158 loads were so hot that when we were finishing the firing course, the ejectors would stick in some guns and you did not want to touch the cylinders at all. But everyone qualified, women too.

A few years after we switched to .45's, all of a sudden people were talking about recoil problems for shooters and they switched to the 40. The 357 had way more recoil than anything we have ever carried. I don't know if recoil just became more PC or it was other factors.

On the rifle issue, the tissue damage reports from the short barrel .223 entry weapons compared to the MP5 are very intersting. They give the edge to the 9mm as the 223 bullets don't work at the reduced velocity. I personally am not a 9mm fan, but I haven't seen too many under stress who let off with much less than a 4-5 round burst. That changes the 9mm quite a bit. The 10mm and 9x25 are great light carbine rounds with little recoil and good terminal ballistics.

Thank you for my rant today.

spcwes

Well there are a lot of folks that feel that just because it is a rifle it will work better. We had up until last year a lot of guys still using FMJ from their 223 rifles and had the mind set that it would explode on impact in CQB. They have hit humans with that round and seen it with their own eyes but still were bull headed. I helped them to see the difference with the help of the county coroner of what a good ballistic tip bullet was capable. No handgun round I have ever scene would match that even from a 16" barrel with is what we use for entry. The smaller ones I can't speak on. I have told them if we go under a 16" barrel on our weapons it needs to be a MP5 9mm or 40 SW and we have those as well. I think that if a 9mm out performs the 223 from a short barrel (less than 16") which I think is possible then a 9mm on crack like the 9X25 would be tuff to deal with. Just my 2 cents again.

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tk064

My point exactly, when you get down to an 11 or 9" barrel in a 223, you might as well switch to the MP, because you are not getting the bullet performance you think you are, of course you might set them on fire with the muzzel blast. The big difference in an entry weapon is that you want him stopped. Now. Realizing a bunch of 223 out of the short barrel will do the trick, but in a semi auto gun, not ideal. If you are shooting him at range and you but a small hole in a vital area and let them crawl off to expire, well that is a different topic. In LEO work, we just don't have the engagement rules for that.

Shooting the double tap 10mm out of a carbine is a pretty impressive little round as I imagine the 9x25 would also be. It is certainly not a battle rifle, but a nice close quarters package with little recoil or muzzel blast and nice energy. I don't like 9mm unless it is in a subgun, but the 10 adn 9x25 up the factor quite a bit.

Dragon5126

I realize that I am new here but...
There are many options carbine wise for entry guns but lets get back to the original premise here, the 9x25 as a handgun round for L.E. ... Hasn't anyone considered one of the primary reasons the .357mag was replaced in law enforcement? It wasn't that the mythical magical 'nine' had greater capacity, it was OVER PENETRATION. Any round booking out at near rifle velocity has the risk of punching through and through, on the perp as well as walls behind them.

I've been out of the business quite a while, but I HAVE done a substantial amount of work for 5 different Agencies here in Milwaukee, and bystander saftey is always was the primary concern.

bobclevenger

This thread is about the 9x25 Dillon, right? Not about the 9x25 Mauser?

retDAC

9x25 Dillon.