schromf

I have looked and contemplated a perfect woods rifle for a long time. I don't like long barrels over 20" inches or so when walking/stalking in heavy brush or timber. A short rifle is what I want I don't want to catch on every bush or tree in the county.

I have used my 7x57 for many years and this is sweet and fits the bill but I have always hankered for a big bore. This is a woods rifle so the long shot would be max 200 yds and average more around 10-25yds cause usually you can't see any farther than that and there is no chainsaw bullets that get through trees that I have found.

Recoil should be moderate, as remember I said "short" rifle, and I would prefer no rubber pad on the base as it just makes the rifle longer.

My thoughts have been a custom mauser on a short action, ( is CZ making a short mauser ? ) with a 20" Douglas/Shilen or Lilja barrel. A fine burled piece of walnut with conventional checkering. The wieght should be light not over say 8-8.5 lbs but not under 7 lbs.

The caliber has where I have been stumped and actually why this project hasn't come to be. I have considered a 9x57, 9.3x57, a 358 winchester, or a custom 375x57 wildact (maybe). The 9x57 seems ideal but bullet selection stinks, and I don't want to scrounge for bullets. The 9.3x 57 is also interesting and I think Speer makes at least a 270 gr for this. My thought on the 358 Winchester is I am concerned about the recoil being excessive as I recall Remington making a short 700 and they had a reputation as stompers. The 35 and 375 calibers seem to offer the best bullet selection bringing practicle to this idea. A 338 caliber would work also it is just a really wanted about 225-270 grain bullets.

Suppose I should say I wanted to use this on deer, bear, elk and moose
( if I can ever draw a tag )

Any thoughts by any others? Suggestions and your wild ideas on this subject are welcome.

ClarkEMyers

Personally I am extremely pleased with my Steyr pseudo Cooper Scout in .376 but there is perhaps more recoil than necessary for some purposes ( mayhap we can agree that if exposed lead is peened it's annoying without talking wimps). See the discussion here under Images for some reasons why the best pseudo Scouts are better rifles (which they indeed are but not footballed around as discontinued items at reduced prices)

My best hunting bud - mountain West - is fond of the CZ/9.3x62 which has an adequate bullet selection currently (search 9.3 bullet at MidwayUSA - I wouldn't use the Speer for much myself but what do I know) - perhaps moderately expensive cases at around 75 cents in bulk, 90 cents in small quantities - bearing in mind that they are fine cases.

For a wild idea and a little heavy consider a Valmet 512 O/U in 9.3X74 - I like the idea as a takedown and find that practice with 12 gauge barrels - substantially the same rib heights - on clay birds helps groove the swing for the woods but I do want that scope sight these days.

schromf

Have you done any handloading with the 376 Steyr? How flexible is the cartridge? I notice it is not a magnum, and if the recoil is a little excessive in full house loads, can the cartridge be down loaded some for general use? Say the Nosler 260 gr @ 2200 to 2300 fps. That would tame the recoil for general hunting and leave the option for full house when needed.

I didn't see any scout rifles when I did a quick search but I did see a Mountain and full stock versions in walnut. Very nice.

Are these contolled round feed assemblies? Pictures showed the bolt face and it is definately not a claw type.

I will do some more homework on this one.

Somerled

I'd look strongly at the .358 Winchester. Bullets and brass aren't too difficult to find. MidwayUSA offers a good supply of bulk 200 grain bullets that would yield lesser recoil. Then there are 225 and 250 grain bullets if you wanted to go after elk or moose. You could even load .357 revolver bullets for low-recoil plinking if you wanted.

Browning is making the BLR in .358 Winchester now if you like lever actions or don't want to go the custom route.

A Reminton Model Seven, Winchester Model 70 classic, Howa/Weatherby or a CZ action sure could be quickly turned into a fine short, .358 Winchester woods rifle.

schromf

I have seen the Browning, a friend I hunt with carries one in .308 and he gets a lot of game with it (including Elk). If I went that way I would look and find a old Belguim made one and not the newer Japanese version.

Yeah the 358 makes a lot of sense, find a .308 I like on a short action and rebarrel it for the 358. Pretty much a done deal except for cosmetics. Brass is reletively cheap and bullet selection is good. The bonus is I could find factory ammo. I have a couple of wildcats I feed and while I don't mind and enjoy reloading I don't see much interest from my sons right now in reloading which means when they inherit them they will become closet queens until they get a little older.

ClarkEMyers

Not controlled feed, one of the weaknesses as a Cooper Scout is that despite the dual detent magazine access to single load is a little restricted but the action does readily permit it.

As noted on other threads the Steyr SBS design has a lot of complex solutions to problems I don't have. The great appeal to me was that it does meet my needs in a neat complete package that cost me about half the posted prices as a discontinued clearance item. My pair .308 & .376 are both gray stock, my friendly local gun dealer has a pair in black - he took all the clearance .376 at $5 per box clearance from the distributor and kept it. Support for the cartridge may well disappear one of these days.

Notice that Hornady does currently offer both a light and a heavy load similar to say the original .41 Remington (pistol) Magnum. My impression is that the cartridge is indeed versatile - using a selection of powders I would and do have on hand anyway - though I am eagerly awaiting shipping on the new Accubond in 260 grain for what I expect to be a definitive load all my brass for the rest of the rifle's life load - the plastic tip should resist peening, we'll see how the bullet holds together. It's been a long time since I had loads all over the spectrum for a given rifle - I have 35 year old load notes for bullets from 90 grain to 170 grain in a .270 - I'm not the man with one gun anymore - for the .376 I expect to have only one full house load and notes for a reduced load if the occasion comes up to share the rifle with a date who likely won't be pushing the range anyway.

Gordon Hulme

Perfect woods rifle? It's hard to think of anything sweeter than a 141 Remington pump in .35 Remington with 200-220grain ammo for ranges under 100yards(woods distance) and game under 400pounds. Mine has a Pachmayr Lo Swing scope mount with a steel domestic Weaver 2 1/2 Post reticule. This gun is faster than my .358 Savage 99 (rare gun) with it's 3X Weaver post scope in Redfield mount with flip up peep, but the Savage extends the range to 200 yards and up to 600pound game with 250 grain loads. I used to think a 5 1/2lb Brown Precision Ultra Light .308 carbine on a 600 rem action, with a 2-7 scope or the same kinda rifle with a scout scope was THE HOT SETUP , as the range of the .308 is virtually unlimited, the load is light , the carbine is quick. I've played with a Marlin Guide gun with forward scope and for alders in Alaska with hot loads this IS the hot set up. Of course my dear departed Uncle Gil's(long since mine) Model 1952 Mannlicher carbine in 30-06 with Zeiss 1.5-6 scope is pretty close to the ultimate woods gun. Ain't life beautiful?

schromf

Do you have any pictures of the mannlicher? Those are nice rifles. I passed a few years back on a mannlicher in 6.5x55 with a butter knife bolt. Regreted it more than once. I have always liked the full stock but I figured if I waited long enough I would run into a big bore version, which hasn't happpened.

DEA

schromf,

How about the reincarnated 350 Remington Magnum?

Will

David Winkler

How about a 338-06, or a 35 Whelen. Either one will do everything a 338 Win Mag will do out to about 200 yds. Both are mild in recoil, accurate and can be made light enough to carry. Good selection of good bullets, lots of loading data, and will take anything on the continent if you do your part.

green_c

CZ is offering a Mannlicher stocked rifle with a 20" barrel in 9.3x62. This is close to your 9.3x57 and meets the barrel length requirement. I'd have to see one in person before I'd buy it, but this one has me very interested.

schromf

Yeah I saw that also, it has me interested, but I concur with seeing one.

matt.45

My vote goes to the Remington Model 81 in 35 Rem. People seem to love it or hate it....but to my eye it has a certain panache!

256M-S

The perfect woods rifle surely depends a fair bit on the nature of the woods and the nature of the game rather than an arbitrary bracketing of calibres with some mysterious qualities of woods whacking.

Down here in the SE, I'm real partial to a 256 Mannlicher-Schonauer stutzen carbine, a pre-war Obendorf 7x57, and a pre-64 Winchester 70 in 257 Roberts. But then I carried a 71 Winchester in 348 in Maine for the little black bears this past September--though found no bear of an acceptable size. In the black timber for elk, I'm partial to a lovely 21 inch barrelled pre-64 Winchester 70 in 375 H&H and I've the same rifle in longer barrel when the terrain is more open. In Cameroun, in West or Central Africa depending on one's geographer of choice, I was partial to a Kimber 416 Rigby and a Dumoulin 460 Wby with 22 inch barrel, but could appreciate the merits of a light weight 9.3X62 Mannlicher-Schoenauer carried by an Austrian hunting acquaintance.

For just fossicking around a friend's pastures and checking out the many wooded edges hoping for a tender doe or perhaps an encounter with wild dogs or coyotes amongst the cattle, one of the first mentioned pieces with their low powered scopes or one of a pair of old Winchester 92's re-chambered to 44 Mag or an even handier Browning 92 in 357 are treats to carry.

We weapons enthusiasts love to rattle on about cartridges, but the choice of cartridge is probably less significant to a woods rifle (given that one has a bullet with good sectional density suitable for the game and range, in a cartridge of reasonable power for the quarry, and isn't off in the hyper velocity realm) than the proper feel and balance. Many of the European rifles with their strange stocks to American eyes actually make superior woods rifles if one learns to shoot with the more erect head position of the European hunter as opposed to the spot welded position of the precision marksman.

To really consider what makes a proper woods rifle, it's hard to beat an older volume by a knowledgeable and gunny old woodswalker named FRANCIS SELL titled, THE DEER HUNTER'S GUIDE published by Stackpole back in the early 60's. Sell's well written, good sense about woods rifles and shotguns have certainly brought me a lot of pleasure and good solid advice over the years, anyway. If you don't know it, look it up and give it a try. It's not difficult to find a copy at out of print bookshops that have hunting books. You may find it enlightening AND a pleasant read.

Dane Burns

I have a lovely 9.3 x 57 '50s Husky Mauser with express sighst but prefer a custom '92 short rifle with short mag tube and a match barrel in 44 mag.

Depends on what you are shooting I guess. Whitetail is easy with either. The 9.3 makes a good little elk gun in the brush around here. Easy choice over a 44 for that size game.

256M-S

Hard to beat the little Husqvarna carbines before they Americanized with their stock design and their pushfeed action. They were a generation or two ahead of the gun world in their interest in functional light weight sporters. Woods or mountain rifle, they were light weight, lively, and accurate rifles---not that any of this has anything to do with heavy bores...

Just got rid of my last two a couple or three years ago, one, a light weight 308 with 1-5X Leupold, a gift to one of my sons and one, a classic 98 with Lyman 48, Griffith & Howe Sidemount and old Weaver 1-5, a trade for a pre-64 338.

glockfoo

A rugeer .44 mag. carbine. I have shot both deer and elk with it. Mine is the older model. Knocks down an animal like it was hit with a frieght train.

David Winkler

Glockfoo

With all due respect, the .44 Mag isn't an elk cartridge...

jhiller

Don't rule out the Marlin lever action in 450 Marlin. It is a consumate brush gun and will take anything in North America. 350 gr of bullet at 2200 fps is a lot of power. Big holes mean quick kills.
I have carried a Marlin 444 since 1969 and have take Moose, Deer, Black Bear. I have not taken Elk or the Big Bears as I use a 375 H&H for the BIG stuff but I certainly would with the 450 marlin.
Jim

Bronco4me

256 hit is square on the head. Seems to me that the area your "woods" are in really dictates that gun and cartridge combo you should be using most of the time. In my local area (California desert/Sierra Nevada mountains) a BAR loaded in .270 Win is a popular item. My trusty Ruger 77RS in .338 Mag also works well for the local mule deer, coyotes and black bear type game.

However, if you live in the north woods or the south eastern swamp lands you might opt for things a lot different due to the typical game size, potential threat and the average length of shot. When I lived in the southeastern states I'd go for a quick pointing, open sighted, lever gun in 30-30 and 35 Rem, but would consider the 444 Mar, 450 Mar or even the 45/70. In the north I'd take a stainless, synthetic stocked, bolt action in .338 Mag or above with 3x9 scope with QD mounts and sights.

Again, depends on what your "woods" are and you're own personal preferences in a gun for your chosen game.

Bronco4me

256 hit is square on the head. Seems to me that the area your "woods" are in really dictates that gun and cartridge combo you should be using most of the time. In my local area (California desert/Sierra Nevada mountains) a BAR loaded in .270 Win is a popular item. My trusty Ruger 77RS in .338 Mag also works well for the local mule deer, coyotes and black bear type game.

However, if you live in the north woods or the south eastern swamp lands you might opt for things a lot different due to the typical game size, potential threat and the average length of shot. When I lived in the southeastern states I'd go for a quick pointing, open sighted, lever gun in 30-30 and 35 Rem, but would consider the 444 Mar, 450 Mar or even the 45/70. In the north I'd take a stainless, synthetic stocked, bolt action in .338 Mag or above with 3x9 scope with QD mounts and sights.

Again, depends on what your "woods" are and you're own personal preferences in a gun for your chosen game.

RonS

Remington just has announced a limited edition 7600 pump action in .35 Whelan. Because of the design, the barrel on this model is effectively free floated, making it slightly more accurate than most auto/pump/lever rifles. If you want a medium bore, this would be my choice.

256M-S

Thanks Broncho. I just had the great fortune to pick up literally in the last couple of days a near stone mint 1910 vintage Winchester 1894 standard rifle with a new to me rear sight variant fm Winchester in 32 Spl. Not exactly my favorite round, but since it duplicates the 30/30 (Barnes says it's the calibre of choice for those who aren't sure that smokeless powder is here to stay), it will do just find on whitetail and hogs whether the latter be pigs or hawgs.

If it shoots anywhere near as well as it looks and feels, it will make a lovely woods gun for the SE. The 26 inch barrel is tapered and at that length, the foresight is sharp and clean for aging eyes. It handles nigh as lively as one of my much loved Mannlichers and I look forward to making it my favorite woods rifle for a hog hunt in S.C. this coming month.

With the superb balance of the tapered 26 inch barrel, it hangs on target like a target rifle without the need for being laced up in a leather shooting jacket, yet still is lively and fast to shoulder unlike say the same barrel length in an 1886. Much easier to use offhand, than say, the little Browning 92 in 357 whose feathery barrel just wobbles all over for me if I'm trying for a precise shot at a small target.

Think old Francis Sell would have loved it, too. I know I do, and am surely looking forward to laying in a supply of 32 Win Spl tomorrow and trying it out at the range over the next few days. Something so pretty and handy just CAN'T not shoot up to it's look and feel.....

Not to dampen me own enthusiasm for the hunt with the elimination of any sense of surprise, I suspect I'm gonna survive yet again without one of the new Short Fat Mags that seem to be a re-invention of the Winchester short mag marketing ploy of the 50's and 60's except with fatter cases to plague yet another generation. Another near century old gun and cartridge will probably work just as well as they did when they were new.

Cheers....

M. Hall

What about a Marlin Guide Gun in .45/70? The loads can be mild to
wild, and perfect for heavy brush.

256M-S

Actually, the myth of the BRUSH BUSTING BULLET has been pretty well debunked over the years by most folks other than writers looking for a perennial old saw subject to sell a new 33+bore cartridge. Mind you, I like my 45/70's and have three I enjoy hunting with, but the standard 45/70 load is probably no better than many a lighter, smaller calibre, faster projectile and at the lower velocity of standard 405-grain loads may be worse.

Brush guns are probably better selected for being well fitted to the shooter, and being lively, fast handling guns for close range shots limited by visibility rather than for any more imaginary than real capability to plow thru brush. If the game is heavier, it may well place a premium on having a large bore, heavy sectional density, round, but that's more to ensure penetration of the critter and breaking heavy bone structure than chopping thru alder stems. Even window glass (and the distance of the target from the glass) can deflect some pretty serious projectiles that with right jacket would otherwise do fine on medium game.

Actually, I don't even like to think about selecting a weapon to shoot thru brush. So many places where the brush is thick enough to warrant the "idea," it's so thick that you couldn't see the game animal or pick out an aiming point. And if you walked thru it, and don't manage to push the game ahead of you or to your flanks, most game critters are probably smart enough to lie doggo and let you pass by them unseen at mebbe even 10 or 15 yards or so. If the idea of shooting THRU bush has any relevance, it's having a scoped weapon that enables one to pick a path for your bullet that won't hit a limb or tree enroute to it's target and, personally, I think that's more optimistic than real life under hunting conditons.

Of course, one COULD opt for John Browning's lovely old Ma-Deuce and with a burst of belt or so, one probably COULD buck brush and lay waste to it like a Honduran Light Infantry Bn on line with machetes---that WOULD likely clear a field of fire...and maybe qualify as a brush buster.

Cheers,

M. Hall

I don't mean for busting through bush, I mean for quick presentation shots of oppurtunity.

Gordon Hulme

It would be VERY hard to beat a Rem Pederson series (14, 14 1/2,141 or model 25) pump gun for quick presentation, my 1953 Mannlicher Schoenauer comes close BUT !!!! Other canidates: original Ruger .44 mag carbine, Marlin Marauder (16" 336 similar to a 'Spike horn') or a Winchester " Trapper" 92 with the illeagal 14" barrel !

ron8903

here in central florida i use a winchester mod 94. 44mag for deer and wild hog's does a nice job on both

256M-S

Mr. Hulme,

Just curious---For what calibre is your 53 Mannlicher chambered?

Also curious about your finding the Remington pump livelier or quicker to hand than the Mannlicher unless the Remington is iron sighted. I've got a couple of levers with iron sights that are better balanced for quick use than my little Mannlichers but it tends to balance out if I remove the scope from the Mannlichers. The only fault I've ever found with the Mannlicher's balance was on a piece taken in trade some years ago that had a grossly heavy scope/mount that really threw off the balance of the piece. The little Mannlicher stutzen 256 is about as lively and fast handling as I can imagine for a bolt gun.

Same with a lovely little pre-War Obendorf Mauser in 7X57 that has a steel tubed German 6X in claw mounts...the scope and mounts throw of the balance for me. I plan to remedy that when I finally get a new set of claws made for a little Leupold 1-5X which is lighter, more in keeping with the lines of the little Mauser, and infinitiely more useful for me in the lower powered option. Will keep the 6X for just odd occasions such as a "big-maybe" return to Africa for leopard or perhaps for antelope out West.

Cheers,

Gordon Hulme

30-06, yes it has a big old Zeiss scope on Jaeger throw lever side mounts.. The reason the eary Pederson designed pumps are so quick is their thin rapier like balance. these guns are THIN , like a Remington 51 pistol, and the pump action is snake like in operation. The 760 series Reminton pumps are bloated characatures of the earlier guns. Although the tiny model 25 pump in 32-20 is not a deer gun it is Really 'fast' and the 14 1/2 in 44-40 is too, but the 141 in .35 Remington has it all! My 'D' series gun has a Pachmeyer Lo swing mount with a 2.5x Lyman Perma Center with post. It weighs right at 7 pounds, with my 200 grain Coreloktd hand load at 2200fps it is a death ray out to 100yards. 8)

256M-S

Mr. Hulme,

Yep, the old Remington pumps are surely slender looking pieces. Never tried one, though since I tend to relegate the pump to social shotguns and lately, as a civiian, even opted for a Benelli when I don't use one of my old Sterlingworths. Pumps never worked all that great for me since I've had a series of problems affecting the left arm so that I don't even care for a bolt gun that cocks on closing.

The old 35 Remington surely works well on deer and hog from all I've heard, though I've never used it myself as do the old CoreLokts within their velocity parameters. Have you used current production CoreLokts and found any change in performance--i.e. that they are softer and more frangible?

The Jaeger mounts make it an easy option to change to a lighter scope for your Mannlicher 06. Most of the older Euro claw mounts don't and it's pricey to have the new rings and claws custom built. The lighter scopes surely make the weapon handle more lively though when you're not sitting in a hochsitz. This passion for moonscopes is something I think relates to lack of access to hunting where more folks shoot on ranges or at game from stands and don't put much premium on a lively handling long arm.

Cheers

schromf

In recent months I have aquired a couple of projects. One is a 1952 Model 70 WInchester and the other is a BRNO ZKK 600. I think the winchester is a little heavy for a bush rifle, hence its being redone into a 280 Remington. The BRNO is getting the handy treatment though. I am rolling the cartridge selection again but 9.3x62 or 7x57 are really all thats in consideration.

Gordon, I really had to think about making the Model 70 into a 300 H&H. But in the end my lifelong fondness of 7mm's and lack of a smith to open the action up properly ( front and rear ) talked me out of it.

budd-e-knuckles

I've learned to go right up the middle with my Questions;

what state will you hunt? / what erea of that state?

What will you be hunting primarily? / what other game will you hunt?

what type of riffle-action do you favor? / any brands you feel good with?

what have you seen so far? / are you comparing to anything?

how often will you use in a year ?

do you have a price range ?

I'm not even a gun-pro, and I can think of many great 'Woods-Guns'

Go to the gun store with the largest selection you can find ,...and make sure you go to a place whare the salespeople are friendly, and curtious.

Grab every gun you like the looks of,... fondle repeatedly,.. ask questions,...and if the sales people get pushy,...kindly ask them to slow down the closing prosses,... and tell them respectfully that they are not helping the sale by trying to hurry you.

then,..bring your qestions here to the forum,.....success! (good luck')

schromf

I agree with the concensus that there are other fine woods rifles. Another fine combination in is a Belgium Browning lever in either .308 Win or 358 Win.

The Savage lever in the right cartridge combo, the Winchester model 88 and the long gone Sako Finwolf all work comfortably in this category.

I have a friend that thinks his 35 Remington is the venison rifle, and judging by his results, I would be hard pressed to argue that point.

Another rifle is a Marlin 336 in 30-30, pretty much a deer getter.

For me, though I want my deer rifle to be capable of a under 150 yd shot at elk also, which limits some of the cartidge choices. Comments about what woods are relevant, and I would expect some of the southern hunters to figure hogs into their choices.

Mannlicher

Although it almost gags me to say "Federal .338", this might fit the bill. I can almost feel a Remington Model 7, full stocked, in this cartridge