Tennesse Slim

I have an early model Delta Elite (~1988) that I had customized when brand-new. That gunsmith turned out to be a putz and I’ve never been satisfied with the outcome. I have a Glock 20C now to sub for the Colt while it’s out for a rebuild so I figure it’s time to put the O-frame right. I’d like your recommendations for who should do the work and your comments on the details.

This is not a damn the expense project; I’d like to keep the final bill under, say, $600. The Colt will mostly be used for plinking but there’s no getting past the fact that it could be pressed into service as a home defense weapon. :x

The OEM barrel was ramped and throated, so it’ll probably need replacement. Is Bar-Sto the way to go? Considering my spending limit, would you go with a collet or fitted barrel/bushing?

Those of you with Magna-Ported 1911s, does the benefit justify the expense?

The frame is plated and will need stripping. What surface treatment do you recommend? Durability and low maintenance are my primary objectives. Just because it looks cool, I’d like a two-tone scheme. I’d prefer subdued but I’m not completely opposed to a shiny slide, say, hard-chromed. If I use a dark slide I’d like gold filigree in the Delta Elite logo.

As for modifications, I want the slide dehorned and the squared trigger guard on the Olympia Arms lower rounded off. I’d like the ejection port lowered and flared and cocking serrations added to the front of the slide. And I’d like a lowered safety, a la Gunsite.

But all that cutesy stuff doesn’t mean a hoot unless the trigger is right. I’d like a nice, crisp 4 lb. trigger, with reliability being the #1 objective. I'd also like a modestly priced accurizing/slide tightening.

If I can fit it in to my budget, I’d also like better sights, but they’re last on my list. And that always could be left for later.

I intend to farm out all the work myself, so using different gunsmiths for different work is not a problem.

So. What say you?

Huevos

With what you have listed, I'd say your way over $600. The best gunsmiths around are on this board, try contacting one of them and figure out what can be done with what you have to spend, that's what I would do. Just my .02. Good luck....Sam

Tennesse Slim

Thanks, Huevos. $600 might be too ambitious, but that weapon is too unreliable now to trust my life to it. Since I'm in for a penny, I might as well be in fo a pound. In fact, let me prioritize my wants. I’m ready to pop for $600 worth now, and can defray what I can’t fit in until later.

Have to haves:
1) Fit new barrel, throating and/or ramping as necessary for reliability.
2) Trigger job for reliability and consistency, ~4 lbs.
3) Round off squared trigger guard (now I can’t use factory holsters)
4) Strip and refinish

Nice-to-haves, in order of importance:
1) Collet or fitted bushing
2) Tighten slide
3) Lower and flare ejection port.
4) Cocking serrations on slide
5) Magna-Porting
6) Lowered safety
7) Dehorn slide
8 ) Replace sights

If I can’t get all this, maybe you can give me some idea how far down the list I can expect to get for $600.

Huevos

Well, judging from a price list on one of the smiths web site I'd say you might get through #2 on your "have to haves". Remember, shipping with FFL fees will cost $80 - $100, any test firing is extra, there's just a lot of variables that can add up. The metal work is pretty much dependant on the condition of your gun now. I think your best bet would be to contact a smith for pricing as you are only getting my somewhat uneducated estimate, like someone else on this board likes to say "I'm not a gunsmith, but I support a few". Here' links to a couple smiths I would recommend. Good luck......Sam
http://www.burnscustom.com/
http://www.yost-bonitz.com/

Tennesse Slim

DOH! I had expected $600 at least to get me through the essentials. Looks like I’ll have to cut back on my New Year’s eve partying.

I already have E-Mailed Mr. Yost with my particulars. He seems to show more interest in the Delta Elite than any other 1911 specialist I’ve come across.

Is there a consensus about Magna-Porting of 1911’s?

And what about the finish? Due to undermaintaining while I carried it in Central America :cry: , the nickel has a fair amount of pitting, so every other consideration takes a back seat to invulnerability. Hard chroming? BlackT? Armalloy? BearCoat? FWIW, I doubt this piece will ever see the inside of a piece of Kydex.

I can already tell I could buy a new Dan Wesson Razorback for less than this project will set me back. Oy vey! :roll:

Huevos

Another thing you'll need to consider is the wait. It doesn't sound too bad at first, but man, does time ever stand still when you are anticipating a beautiful pistol from Dane or Ted. When you're going through these forums and reading reports (with photos!) from people who have just received their guns from one of these guys, it's more than a person can take. I got so antsy that I bought 2 other pistols to tide me over. I am not trying to talk you out of anything, just letting you know what you are in for. If you do have one of these guys build up your pistol, you'll really have something special (not that there's anything wrong with Razorbacks), and it'll be a Colt to boot.
Take care..........Sam

M. Hall

May want to have a look at Don Williams, the owner of The
Action Works. He's very reasonable, usually willing to 'rescue'
projects and pretty quick to deliver. On top of that, he's a
fine gentleman to deal with.
Personally, I would not Mag-Na-Port an auto pistol. Everyone
I know that has, is looking for another upper to 'fix' their gun.
Not that I dislike the process, just that it's not a great set-up
on an auto IMHO.

Tennesse Slim

M. Hall, funny you should mention Mag-Na-Porting autoloaders. My Glock is ported and I have fired it and the Colt, one round at a time or full magazines at a time, then switching, trying to calibrate my recoil-meter. Danged if I can tell a lick of difference in them. If anything, I think the unported Delta is more controllable! :-?

Jeffro

I have to agree with Mr. Hall on Don Williams at ActionWorks. He is a real gem of a gentleman with whom to deal, and a great smith to boot, with really good prices on excellent work.
Best of luck,
Jeffro (Jeff)

M. Hall

I recently sold my Glock 20c that had a "Hyper-Ported" Bar-
Sto barrel (Hyper-Porting are funnel shaped ports, supposed
to increase downward thrust even more than regular thru-
porting), plus I had a Harrts recoil reducer, and it knocked
recoil down a little when using extreme-pressure loads, but
it threw off my 'recoil-rythm' for lack of a better term. I don't
know how to explain it, but the roll of 10mm recoil snaps back
on target very fast for me....So one-shot (like hunting), it
helped, but did not justify the expense, and actually hurt my
resale value. However, on my .44 mags, the Mag-Na-Porting
worked very keen!!!

jakes10mm

Taking a look at your various "haves" lists, you may be able to get very close to your objective price if you take care of a few of the "easier" mods yourself.

A quick browse through the Brownell's catalog will enlighten you on some of the items you can get a head start on for your gunsmith.

1. Depending on the type of plating, you can get the chemicals to strip some finishes.
2. Squared trigger guard....was that heated and bent or was is welded to look like the old first run of 3rd Generation Smith & Wesson trigger guards? If it was welded on, a couple files and a polishing wheel could help you round it off as well as dehorn the slide and lower/flare your ejection port. If you feel bold, you can cut your own front slide serrations with a file. I did it on a SA 1911A1 MS and it came out respectable, considering it cost me the price of a mini-file set.
3. I have matched the Chip McCormick "prepped" hammers and sears in a couple 1911's and ended up with some respectable triggers. (Pull weight unknown.....too cheap to buy a gauge, if it feels good, and safe, then weight becomes strictly a bragging point.)
4. Your barrel bushing should come with the price of fitting the match barrel, so you can combine those items.
5. Magnaporting....why??? Ever cleaned a ported gun? Save yourself the frustration! Spend that money on a reloading set and handload to the "recoil level" you desire. The effectiveness of porting is directly related to the pressure of the loads. Unless you plan on running full-house loads consistently through the Delta (wear & tear!), you will not "feel" the full benefit of the added cost of porting.
6. I stripped and prepped the forementioned SA Mil Spec with various grades of sand paper and emery cloth. I was using 60 grit to get through the parkerizing. It polished out well by hand, but did take a few days to finish.


THEN, I would have your gunsmith:
1. Install a match barrel and bushing
2. Tighten the slide to frame fit
3. Install new sights
4. Refinish the pistol

This comes from a shooter who also likes to tinker on his guns. If you are not inclined to work on your own guns, then please disregard and move on to the next response post.

Tennesse Slim

Thanks, Jake. I appreciate the input. I’ve not been a member of this group for long but I do belong to several other news groups, mostly ‘tech’ sites. It’s refreshing that everyone who responded here is offering constructive advice; not a single post knocking my plan or flaming me. I guess that’s just another indicator that ‘gun people’ are different from ‘geeks.’

Truth be known, I have a peculiar sentimental attachment to some things, and ‘The Colonel’ is one of them. I’ve been tinkering with ‘him’ for years and all I’ve accomplished is to prove I know less than nothing about modding a Delta Elite. :-? I’ve not exhibited this level of incompetence with other O-frames but I’ve stayed much more basic with them.
From a functional standpoint I might be able to do the frame mods, but there’d always be cosmetic flaws; I don’t fancy spending another 15 years looking at my DE and thinking I could’ve done better by it. I’d sooner suck it up, admit I screwed the pooch ops: , and apply cubic dollars to fix it. And I figure putting the project in the hands of a competent smith, beginning to end, is most likely to produce an outcome that I’ll be proud of. I guess I was deluding myself if I thought $600 would take me anywhere near where I wanted to go.

As for the Mag-Na-Porting, I hope it will help tame full-house loads (I didn’t buy a 10 so I could shoot .40 Short & Weak). I already run a Harrts recoil reducer and #24 Wolff spring, but it’s still a handful around 700 lbs. ME . And I have other compensated weapons, so I know the grungy port routine. But I’ve already admitted that the Colt is as controllable as the Glock (despite its heavier slide and compensator) so I’m beginning to question the rationale (and expense).

I might have a go at the stripping. I know just enough about metallurgy to fear an acid bath causing hydrogen embrittlement, but I understand there are some cyanide compounds that will remove the nickel without harming the steel. Does anyone know of a stripper for nickel over steel that is 1) commercially available and 2) kind to the steel?

Sean Smith

I've had Mag-Na-Porting. I'd skip it. Aside from making the gun louder and reducing muzzle velocity, I don't think it does that much. A better idea, since you want to replace the barrel anyway, is to consider a bull barrel to reduce muzzle flip & make the gun shoot "softer."

That said, unless your stock barrel was over-throated, you might get the accuracy you want by having a 'smith fit a match bushing & re-crown the barrel... and save alot of cash in the process. A new barrel installation will include a new bushing fitted (except for the bull, which of course doesn't use a bushing), so I wouldn't consider it a separate item.

Consider replacing the firing pin stop with an EGW to delay unlocking. It won't give you a huge magical benefit, but may be another incrimental improvement to consider, and it is under $20.

Part of your recoil problem may be that you are overspringing the gun. Try a 20 lb variable spring with a CP or Heitt buffer instead on a normal steel guide rod and see how it feels. I found that going from 24 to 20 lbs actually made the gun shoot alot softer, contrary to what you'd expect, and give your wrist less of a pogo-stick beating.

Trigger job and de-horn would be no problem for a good 'smith. 4 lbs is very do-able by anyone competent. I wouldn't strip a plated finish yourself, though... stripping the old finish is included in the cost of a new finish most of the time anyway, so it owuldn't be a real savings anyhow. The finish that meets your description of needs best is hard chrome.

I dunno about un-squaring a squared trigger job. Might not be worth the bother.

The Colt ejection port is already lowered, and flaring it may be a waste of your money. Front cocking serrations are just a waste of your money. Tightening the slide-to-frame fit will make the gun feel nicer, but won't give you much (if anything) accuracy-wise.

I'd also bump the better sights up the priority list. Heinies or Yost-Bonitz sights depending on the look you want.

agtman

Well, here's the Report on what Vic Tibbets did to my Delta (the link includes a list of the parts used & work done, as well as a few pics):

http://bren-ten.com/agtman-delta/id4.html

But it cost me more than $600 - and was well worth it too. :wink: Good luck on your Delta project.

8)

Tennesse Slim

agtman, I saw that already. Looks mighty tasty, too. Unfortunately, here is an excerpt from Tibbets' website:

"Attention: As of 8/12/03, full time work on customer supplied pistols has been suspended until further notice." :cry:

Looks like I'm a day late and about $600 short.

FWIW, your end result is within spittin' distance of where I'm aiming to go.

Tennesse Slim

I’ve come to the conclusion that $600 will get me just about half my refurb job. Monday I sent the lower receiver to Don Williams at Action Works to have the hooked trigger guard bobbed (Safari Arms lower), It was only after I shipped it that I began to investigate Mr. Williams and the Action Works Gunsmithing. I’ve been very favorably impressed with what I’ve found and, it he’ll take the job, I think I’ll have him do the whole 9 yards.

Anyone who has experience with The Action Works, I’d sure like to hear your thoughts.

Don Williams does great work, you should be very happy with the results.

Jeffro

Slim,
I have never met Don Williams face-to-face, but have sent him a fair amount of work. He is quite a gentleman and does very good, clean work. He has called me after receiving work I have sent him and told me not to spend the money on certain items........ that it wasn't necessary! His prices are quite reasonable (especially for the high quality work he turns out). I have sent him both revolvers (both single and double-action) as well as 1911s, and have always been quite pleased with his work and pricing. An added bonus is that his turn-around times have always been surprisingly good for me. The only puzzlement for me is, why aren't his prices higher?? (but don't tell DON that!)
I give him the highest marks for both integrity and craftsmanship.
As they say in the "country", "It don't get no better". :lol:
Best of luck,
Jeffro

Tennesse Slim

Mr. Williams has agreed to do the entire job for me (at least until he’s seen what I’m sending him). Jeffro, I hope you’re right about his prices. I don’t mind paying for good work and I’m always eager to help a real craftsman stay in business. Still, I won’t balk at a wee discount.

I’ll be sure to post pix when its done, and my impressions – I’m not expert enough to call it a ‘review’ -- as soon after that as I’m able.

Thanks to one and all for your input.

Andy

Um, Slim, why not just sell/ditch the frame and start fresh with a Caspian? A Safari Arms lower ain't a Colt, by a longshot.

Tennesse Slim

I have too much sentimental attachment to the Colt, for one. Second, I like the SA lower; that's why I had it mated to the DE slide. And I can't knock the quality; fifteen years and a few thousand full-house loads later, there is no cracking and it show no signs of abuse.

schromf

You were trying to stay on a budget, there are some areas that can help. Don't jump into a Barsto barrel based on name, they are quality but some smiths prefer other brands. A Kart barrel if fitted properly will shoot as good or better than the Barsto. A Kart 10mm barrel runs $140.00 the Barsto runs $200. Good smiths usually charge around $100.00 to fit a barrel and you need a $15.00 bushing. That is around $250-$260 out the door, leaving $ for other needs and wants on your list.

Sights would be high on my list of upgrades, right after reliability and trigger work. It might might be nice to jump into costmetics, but they would be definately last, as I don't care how pretty a gun is if it doesn't run right I will never like it.

Tennesse Slim

Agreed. I had been tolerating the blemished finish since it was ravaged by life in Central America but the FTFs were becoming increasingly -- and alarmingly -- common (despite new Colt-brand mags). That was the straw that broke the camel's back. I'm not a competitive shooter and probably couldn't tell the difference between a hangun with 0.5 MoA accuracy and one with 5.0 MoA, but yer dern tootin' I can spot a FTF or a stovepipe first time every time. I'd been using it for a paperweight since I got my G20C because I wouldn't bet my life that it would get off the second round.

Anyhow, I've turned over the whole project to The Action Works now. I had a lengthy telephone conversation with Don Williams one week ago today that has me convinced this project is going straight toward the 10-ring. He cringed at my mention of throwing out the baby along with the bath water and suggested he might be able to salvage both the OEM barrel and bushing. Naturally, this leaves a few more Gen. Grants for other uses.

But I have a warm fuzzy that Mr. Williams is going to give me more accuracy that I can use, the reliability of an anvil, and make it purtier than a speckled pup to boot. And, amazingly, it's going to come in within spittin' distance of my original $600 budget.