Pinning the 1911 grip safety...

M. Hall · 12-30-2002, 05:58 PM

I know it's been played, but I can't seem to find the reference.
What is the best (read: cleanest) way to pin the grip safety...
not permanently. I'm starting to find that the faster I get, the
less reliably I fully depress this thing....
***pics for the brain dead would be appreciated*** :-?

Dane Burns · 12-30-2002, 06:35 PM

Cut a Shock buff in a "U" shape to fit the flat top area of the mainspring housing perfectly.

Squish the buff between the beavertail and mainspring housing. Strut goes on top of the of the thin part of the "U". You don't want the strut to drag on the buff. Cut it paper thin in that area. Replace the mainspring pin and you are done.

M. Hall · 12-31-2002, 04:45 PM

Thanks Dane-I'm also looking for a 'real' way to pin it, like
with a roll pin (?)-Pics appreciated!!

Dane Burns · 12-31-2002, 07:23 PM

Sorry you asked for the best and cleanest.

eerw · 12-31-2002, 07:35 PM

Dane's way works great...

another way that I have mine pinned is to drill hole in MSH and then insert small piece of rod that depresses grip safety...I can email a photo if you are interested...

Tom Freeman · 01-01-2003, 07:33 AM

I just cut the foot off the safety. Not pinned, very permanent. No pins to work loose or shock buffs to wear out.

Dane Burns · 01-01-2003, 11:02 AM

Buffs don't wear in this application.

FrancisB · 01-01-2003, 12:39 PM

Can someone tell me the potential liablity you'd be under for using a pinned 1911 as a carry pistol?

I ask because I've never found a grip safety which works 100% of the time for me if I draw in a hurry.

I'm wondering if having a pinned safety will get you in trouble if you end up using your 1911 for self defense? I could articulate why it's actually safer to carry a gun which works reliablity for me than one that doesn't, but welcome the informed thoughts of others on this issue.

I realize there is no downside in the various games (IPSC, IDPA, etc.) we play.

Just curious,
thanks,

Francis

M. Hall · 01-01-2003, 12:49 PM

Yeah, eerw, please e-mail a pic-that's very helpful!

In2Deep · 01-01-2003, 01:40 PM

I don't think this will be the end all of your liability. Let's face it. A bad shoot is a bad shoot. If you have control over your weapon, the only way that it is going to go off is if something depresses the trigger. Usually your finger. It should not be anywhere near your trigger unless you have identified your target/threat, aligned your weapon/sights, and have made that conscious decision to shoot.

IMHO, a pinned or disabled safety may complicate your legal situation, not create one.

Just my .02

Happy New Year All!

Dane Burns · 01-01-2003, 02:26 PM

"I could articulate why it's actually safer to carry a gun which works reliablity for me than one that doesn't"

The key is being able to articulate your reasoning in court and getting a jury to buy it. Long before I became a Justifiable Use of Lethal Force Instructor, I pinned my own duty gun (I also wasn't the only one on that department) for the same reason...I could not disengage a properly set up beavertail. Still can't and still do.

But I also have the education on the law of my state and the weapon design to be able to articulate my reasoning for doing so.

More importantly I trust my skills to not have a bad shooting. A bad shooting is just that bad. A *safe* gun won't get you out of one. A good shooting isn't going to be negated because you used a LAWS with no safety as long as it was designed to stop and did so ONLY on the intended person. That person will have needed to be threatening you or another innocent with imminent grave bodily harm or death however before you use it.

I have never seen a good shoot complicated by doing so from a credible source and last I checked Mas Ayoob could not give me a reference on one either. If you live in a state where criminal innocence eliminates civil liability that is certainly to your benefit. If you live where criminal innocence has nothing to do with civil liability I would certainly take another look at the appropriate laws of where I live.

Rosco Benson · 01-02-2003, 04:30 PM

Deactivating a grip safety causes ennui and halitosis. It is rumored to also cause fallen arches, low self-esteem, and dandruff.

These are all bad things, but none are worse that no BANG when one really NEEDS a BANG.

For those who have trouble with grip safeties, but who do not wish to disable them, try the Caspian beavertail with the "dorsal fin" shaped speed-bump (which runs vertically up the back of the safety). Colt put these on the "XS" guns and they work really well.

Rosco

Gordon Hulme · 01-02-2003, 08:32 PM

The 1911 served in Two major conflicts over 75 years with millions of sucessfull users with out a problem of grip safety. Adapt to the gun and use it properly and it will never fail you. A pinned grip safety is just plain hokey looking too. IMHO if you like that operation get a solid backstrapped gun.

Dane Burns · 01-02-2003, 08:42 PM

Col. Cooper, among others, have pinned their grip safeties for all the obvious reasons. Carry one to protect your life and if your skills are high enough the grip saftey can/will fail you.

I am not too concerned about how it looks, or who it works for, as long as it works for me.

If the grip safety is of no concern to you, forget about it.

Rosco Benson · 01-03-2003, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordon Hulme

The 1911 served in Two major conflicts over 75 years with millions of sucessfull users with out a problem of grip safety.

It could be that the unsuccessful users were unable to voice their complaints.

The effectiveness with which a pistol can be used, combatively, has taken a quantum leap since the WWII era. Thanks largely to Jeff Cooper, the 1911 pistol has gone from being cursed an inaccurate and hard-kicking clunker to a quick and precise defensive weapon. Given the changes in the techniques used to effectively employ the pistol, it should be no surprise that the pistol itself has shown the need for some changes.

Rosco

Brian D. · 01-03-2003, 11:23 AM

I'm "lucky" to have a generous pad of flesh on each hand in the spot needed to push the grip safety in, even a plain ol' GI style. Have never had a problem, even when picking gun up off table, or some other weird place, or when draw was less than perfect. My friend and fellow shooter Rosco B. is not as "well endowed"

--in web area of his hands. I've even seen him have a bit of trouble with the grip safety on the newer "loaded" Springfield--I had to see this for myself to believe it. Doesn't happen often, just when doing an up-close high speed drill, grabbing gun from someplace other than holster, etc. Makes sense to me that Rosco and some others would pin a grip safety. I have suggested plastic surgery --saline palm implants?-- as an alternative, but so far he hasn't taken this seriously. Signing off now, I just know I'm gonna pay for that well endowed remark! :P

Rosco Benson · 01-03-2003, 03:21 PM

Pay you will!...evil Brian. :evil: My HMO won't pay for palm implants, so I guess I'm stuck.

On a slight tangent; knowing that I have a problem reliably depressing the grip safety, I know to drop my strong hand's thumb into a "low thumb" grip when doing one of our surprise "battlefield pickup" scenarios--if the surprise gun is someone else's 1911.

If I had to use someone else's 1911 and had a little time to prep it. A couple rubber bands or a wrap of electrician's tape (or, in a pinch, even target pasting tape) will suffice.

Rosco

Blackjack · 01-03-2003, 03:55 PM

I know this is tough to do verbally, but can any of you describe how you can _accurately_ fire a 1911 without depressing the grip safety ?

I sure can`t.

Also, for the little it`s worth, Bill Jordan in " No Secondplace Winner" on page 70, makes very general references to his dislike of the GS.

I have the greatest respect for Jordan, as a Man & a Shooter, but from his other comments like : " it`s not a good natural pointer " I suspect that it is a highly trained Revolver mans aversion to a different technology.

Tom Freeman · 01-03-2003, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackjack

I know this is tough to do verbally, but can any of you describe how you can _accurately_ fire a 1911 without depressing the grip safety ?

Put your strong thumb on top of the thumb safety while shooting. Use the safety as a lever to help with muzzle climb. Your weak thumb rests near the forward portion of the slide stop. Both pointing to the target.

With a little practice you can be accurate, and fast.

Gordon Hulme · 01-03-2003, 08:27 PM

I knew my reply would bring dissent, and I am well versed on Saint Jeff's practices. Maybe when we (for some unknown reason) shot pistol one handed(until mid 60s) the grip safety worked as it should! I think this is why some like chocolate and some like vanilla IMHO.

M. Hall · 01-04-2003, 11:16 AM

Not that I ever doubted you Dane, but I tried your 'buff
trick, and it works great. Thanks very much!

Metazorro · 01-05-2003, 08:12 AM

Hi

ANy chance someone could post a picture of the shock buff cut and in place, I can't quite figure it out.

thank you

Richard

vincent · 01-10-2003, 02:20 PM

WARNING I could be totally off base! For educational/discussion purposes only!

OK since it doesn't look like anyone else will bite, here is my understanding:

Below is a crude drawing of a "top down" view of a mainspring housing looking down into the shaft that contains the main spring.

The blue area is the "U" shaped piece of shock-buff.

Maybe Dane can confirm or correct.

Dane Burns · 01-10-2003, 05:42 PM

Looks perfect to me...you guys are amazing 8) Thanks Vincent

Make it a loose fit and make it very thin on the bottom of the "U". I have made them from leather, rubber and now buffs. Never had a problem in 20 years of doing so once they are fitted correctly. You DO NOT want the hammer strut to drag on the bottom of the U.

12-30-2002, 05:58 PM	#1
M. Hall Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 2,141	Pinning the 1911 grip safety... I know it's been played, but I can't seem to find the reference. What is the best (read: cleanest) way to pin the grip safety... not permanently. I'm starting to find that the faster I get, the less reliably I fully depress this thing.... *pics for the brain dead would be appreciated* :-?

01-03-2003, 11:23 AM	#16
Brian D. Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 325	Good, lively thread, lotsa fun so far! I'm "lucky" to have a generous pad of flesh on each hand in the spot needed to push the grip safety in, even a plain ol' GI style. Have never had a problem, even when picking gun up off table, or some other weird place, or when draw was less than perfect. My friend and fellow shooter Rosco B. is not as "well endowed" --in web area of his hands. I've even seen him have a bit of trouble with the grip safety on the newer "loaded" Springfield--I had to see this for myself to believe it. Doesn't happen often, just when doing an up-close high speed drill, grabbing gun from someplace other than holster, etc. Makes sense to me that Rosco and some others would pin a grip safety. I have suggested plastic surgery --saline palm implants?-- as an alternative, but so far he hasn't taken this seriously. Signing off now, I just know I'm gonna pay for that well endowed remark! :P

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12-30-2002, 06:35 PM	#2
Dane Burns Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Issaquah, WA Posts: 3,826	Cut a Shock buff in a "U" shape to fit the flat top area of the mainspring housing perfectly. Squish the buff between the beavertail and mainspring housing. Strut goes on top of the of the thin part of the "U". You don't want the strut to drag on the buff. Cut it paper thin in that area. Replace the mainspring pin and you are done.

12-31-2002, 04:45 PM	#3
M. Hall Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 2,141	Thanks Dane-I'm also looking for a 'real' way to pin it, like with a roll pin (?)-Pics appreciated!!

12-31-2002, 07:23 PM	#4
Dane Burns Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Issaquah, WA Posts: 3,826	Sorry you asked for the best and cleanest.

12-31-2002, 07:35 PM	#5
eerw Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 555	Dane's way works great... another way that I have mine pinned is to drill hole in MSH and then insert small piece of rod that depresses grip safety...I can email a photo if you are interested...

01-01-2003, 07:33 AM	#6
Tom Freeman Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 581	I just cut the foot off the safety. Not pinned, very permanent. No pins to work loose or shock buffs to wear out.

01-01-2003, 11:02 AM	#7
Dane Burns Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Issaquah, WA Posts: 3,826	Buffs don't wear in this application.

01-01-2003, 12:39 PM	#8
FrancisB Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Portland Oregon Posts: 25	Can someone tell me the potential liablity you'd be under for using a pinned 1911 as a carry pistol? I ask because I've never found a grip safety which works 100% of the time for me if I draw in a hurry. I'm wondering if having a pinned safety will get you in trouble if you end up using your 1911 for self defense? I could articulate why it's actually safer to carry a gun which works reliablity for me than one that doesn't, but welcome the informed thoughts of others on this issue. I realize there is no downside in the various games (IPSC, IDPA, etc.) we play. Just curious, thanks, Francis

01-01-2003, 12:49 PM	#9
M. Hall Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 2,141	Yeah, eerw, please e-mail a pic-that's very helpful!

01-01-2003, 01:40 PM	#10
In2Deep Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 163	I don't think this will be the end all of your liability. Let's face it. A bad shoot is a bad shoot. If you have control over your weapon, the only way that it is going to go off is if something depresses the trigger. Usually your finger. It should not be anywhere near your trigger unless you have identified your target/threat, aligned your weapon/sights, and have made that conscious decision to shoot. IMHO, a pinned or disabled safety may complicate your legal situation, not create one. Just my .02 Happy New Year All!

01-01-2003, 02:26 PM	#11
Dane Burns Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Issaquah, WA Posts: 3,826	"I could articulate why it's actually safer to carry a gun which works reliablity for me than one that doesn't" The key is being able to articulate your reasoning in court and getting a jury to buy it. Long before I became a Justifiable Use of Lethal Force Instructor, I pinned my own duty gun (I also wasn't the only one on that department) for the same reason...I could not disengage a properly set up beavertail. Still can't and still do. But I also have the education on the law of my state and the weapon design to be able to articulate my reasoning for doing so. More importantly I trust my skills to not have a bad shooting. A bad shooting is just that bad. A safe gun won't get you out of one. A good shooting isn't going to be negated because you used a LAWS with no safety as long as it was designed to stop and did so ONLY on the intended person. That person will have needed to be threatening you or another innocent with imminent grave bodily harm or death however before you use it. I have never seen a good shoot complicated by doing so from a credible source and last I checked Mas Ayoob could not give me a reference on one either. If you live in a state where criminal innocence eliminates civil liability that is certainly to your benefit. If you live where criminal innocence has nothing to do with civil liability I would certainly take another look at the appropriate laws of where I live.

01-02-2003, 04:30 PM	#12
Rosco Benson Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 515	Deactivating a grip safety causes ennui and halitosis. It is rumored to also cause fallen arches, low self-esteem, and dandruff. These are all bad things, but none are worse that no BANG when one really NEEDS a BANG. For those who have trouble with grip safeties, but who do not wish to disable them, try the Caspian beavertail with the "dorsal fin" shaped speed-bump (which runs vertically up the back of the safety). Colt put these on the "XS" guns and they work really well. Rosco

01-02-2003, 08:32 PM	#13
Gordon Hulme Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 443	The 1911 served in Two major conflicts over 75 years with millions of sucessfull users with out a problem of grip safety. Adapt to the gun and use it properly and it will never fail you. A pinned grip safety is just plain hokey looking too. IMHO if you like that operation get a solid backstrapped gun.

01-02-2003, 08:42 PM	#14
Dane Burns Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Issaquah, WA Posts: 3,826	Col. Cooper, among others, have pinned their grip safeties for all the obvious reasons. Carry one to protect your life and if your skills are high enough the grip saftey can/will fail you. I am not too concerned about how it looks, or who it works for, as long as it works for me. If the grip safety is of no concern to you, forget about it.

01-03-2003, 03:21 PM	#17
Rosco Benson Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 515	Pay you will!...evil Brian. :evil: My HMO won't pay for palm implants, so I guess I'm stuck. On a slight tangent; knowing that I have a problem reliably depressing the grip safety, I know to drop my strong hand's thumb into a "low thumb" grip when doing one of our surprise "battlefield pickup" scenarios--if the surprise gun is someone else's 1911. If I had to use someone else's 1911 and had a little time to prep it. A couple rubber bands or a wrap of electrician's tape (or, in a pinch, even target pasting tape) will suffice. Rosco

01-03-2003, 03:55 PM	#18
Blackjack Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 176	I know this is tough to do verbally, but can any of you describe how you can _accurately_ fire a 1911 without depressing the grip safety ? I sure can`t. Also, for the little it`s worth, Bill Jordan in " No Secondplace Winner" on page 70, makes very general references to his dislike of the GS. I have the greatest respect for Jordan, as a Man & a Shooter, but from his other comments like : " it`s not a good natural pointer " I suspect that it is a highly trained Revolver mans aversion to a different technology.

01-03-2003, 08:27 PM	#20
Gordon Hulme Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 443	I knew my reply would bring dissent, and I am well versed on Saint Jeff's practices. Maybe when we (for some unknown reason) shot pistol one handed(until mid 60s) the grip safety worked as it should! I think this is why some like chocolate and some like vanilla IMHO.

01-04-2003, 11:16 AM	#21
M. Hall Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 2,141	Not that I ever doubted you Dane, but I tried your 'buff trick, and it works great. Thanks very much!

01-05-2003, 08:12 AM	#22
Metazorro Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 81	Hi ANy chance someone could post a picture of the shock buff cut and in place, I can't quite figure it out. thank you Richard

01-10-2003, 02:20 PM	#23
vincent Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 88	WARNING I could be totally off base! For educational/discussion purposes only! OK since it doesn't look like anyone else will bite, here is my understanding: Below is a crude drawing of a "top down" view of a mainspring housing looking down into the shaft that contains the main spring. The blue area is the "U" shaped piece of shock-buff. Maybe Dane can confirm or correct.

01-10-2003, 05:42 PM	#24
Dane Burns Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Issaquah, WA Posts: 3,826	Looks perfect to me...you guys are amazing 8) Thanks Vincent Make it a loose fit and make it very thin on the bottom of the "U". I have made them from leather, rubber and now buffs. Never had a problem in 20 years of doing so once they are fitted correctly. You DO NOT want the hammer strut to drag on the bottom of the U.