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Old 07-18-2002, 02:52 AM   #1
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Full length dust cover rule

At the last IDPA match I shot a fellow shooter was using a full length dustcover CZ .45 ACP.

Not being a Range Rat I didn't ask, but has IDPA changed the ruling on full length dust cover guns?

Thanks-

Brent
 
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Old 07-18-2002, 09:59 AM   #2
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The CZ 97B is a DA/SA pistol in .45 that comes from the factory with a full dust cover. Since it is a DA/SA pistol it could be used in SSP where basically only factory offered pistols with no external modifications, can be used. There is a note at the end of the section in guidelines for CDP equipment that says:

Pistols approved for SSP may also be used in ESP or CDP depending on caliber.

If the pistol, and its a big one, fits in the box, meets the guidelines for SSP, it can be shot in either division.

That's my take on it.
 
Old 07-18-2002, 11:02 AM   #3
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I think Brent is referring to the "NON-INCLUSIVE list of EXCLUDED modifications," which specifically mentions "extended dust covers."

I read it the same way, Brent, that extended dust covers, like the Baer Monolith and Springer Operator, are not allowed. Like you, I wouldn't have squawked, either.

In the IDPA column in the latest Combat Handguns, I thought it ironic they had a glowing review of the Caspian Recon Frame 1911, a weapon specifically disallowed from IDPA becuase of the full length dust cover AND the coned barrel.

Scott
 
Old 07-18-2002, 11:36 AM   #4
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Thanks for the reply guys.

I was referring to the list in which full length-dust covers are mentioned.

Scott, I caught that too and thought it odd (the magazine article).

Anyway, my end goal is the hope that my SV might be legal now, but I doubt anything has changed.

John, if I could get 10 round single stack 10mm mags I wouldn't care!

Anyway, maybe someday they'll change the rule. I don't really think the full length makes much difference, but it looks cool. I definetly don't see it starting an IDPA equipment race if they were legal, but its not a rule I'm going to worry much about- just curious.

Brent
 
Old 07-18-2002, 05:55 PM   #5
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In the case of the 97B, the full-length dustcover is not a "modification," and I think that's the important point. With the other guns you see mentioned, you're usually referring to a full-blown custom gun, and not something off the assembly line (ala CZ, EAA, etc.) A SIG P-210 has a full-length dustcover, and its legal.

The list of things not allowed generally refer to after-market changes to the gun, or all the knick-knacks that can be added to a custom 1911.

(I said "generally", 'cause things like bull barrels, even when from the factory, aren't allowed. Question: is a bull barrel available from Wilson Custom?)
 
Old 07-19-2002, 03:32 AM   #6
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The dust cover on the 97B is as much of a modification as the full length dust cover on my Strayer-Voight- by that I mean the original CZ didn't have one, nor did the original 1911.

The CZ is being marketed as a competition gun (I have an add for it right next to me), they recognize it as a "modification" of the original design.

Yes, it left the factory that way- but so did any 1911 with a full length dust cover.

Just a thought.

Brent
 
Old 07-19-2002, 03:56 AM   #7
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If someone showed up at my IDPA match with a CZ with the extended dustcover like the "Standard IPSC" one http://www.czub.cz/obsah/images/CZ75IP-m.jpg I would tell him he has an illegal gun, but feel free to shoot.

I would post his score, but not in ESP or CDP. In his own class. This is something we do for those who dont own IDPA legal guns but who want to compete. We also do this for those who dont want to shoot stages the IDPA way, more the "IPSC" way I guess you could say.
 
Old 07-19-2002, 06:53 AM   #8
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I asked around before I made the reply I did. The CZ 97B is legal with respect to SSP and therefore it would be legal in CDP in 8+1.

The CZ Standard IPSC is a modified CZ 75, SA only, and that's why they are saying no go.

I ain't goin' there with respect to why long dust covers are not legal.

Brent, I emailed metalform about the 10rd 10mm mags. I told them that I used their 9rd mags and what I did to make them run in my Caspian and that the mags had to fit in "The Box". Their reply was "Thank you for your note. We are developing a 10-round 40SW/10mm magazine and I appreciate your input. It is still a few months away from prototype so please be patient. We will post on our web site when they become available." We just may get there yet.
 
Old 07-19-2002, 07:49 AM   #9
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"In the case of the 97B, the full-length dustcover is not a "modification," and I think that's the important point. "

The Springer Operator is not a modification. It is a factory gun, and specifically disallowed, so I'm not sure why the 97B would be any different.

But then, no cone barrels, 10mm in ESP, no knee-pads...who knows what some of the rules are based on. Could this ruling be linked to the fact that Wilson does not offer a fulll dust cover gun? No, that would be cynical thinking.

Scott
 
Old 07-19-2002, 10:05 AM   #10
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It will be interesting to see what develops as more and more full length dust cover guns come onto the market.

John, thanks for the magazine update. This is indeed good news for both shooters forced to shoot the 10mm in ESP IDPA and those who use their single stack 10/40's for IPSC L10.

Brent
 
Old 07-19-2002, 02:06 PM   #11
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Brent, what do you think about asking for some prototypes to see if the work ok? I mean, we should help them with their product development and evaluation right? :roll:
 
Old 07-20-2002, 05:34 PM   #12
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Newbie question

Dust covers? On a pistol? Why put it there, and why would it be considered illegal, simply 'cause it changes the outward appearance of the gun?
 
Old 07-20-2002, 08:51 PM   #13
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MuM,

The dust cover refers to the part of the frame that extends forward from the triggerguard under the slide. On a normal GM, it stops about 2" short of the muzzle. An extended dustcover extends all the way forward to the muzzle. Because it puts more weight out toward the muzzle, it might help tame recoil, and is therefore considered illegal for IDPA at this time.

Scott
 
Old 07-23-2002, 12:54 PM   #14
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Sounds good to me John! Let me know if you convince anyone else that we should be doing this...
 
Old 07-25-2002, 07:36 AM   #15
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I would have to agree w/ TF on this one. We also do this with folks who don't have IDPA approved gear.

This is just anther example WHY the rule book needs to be cleaned up.

Still a good game to play, just need to clean the rule book up and look at a couple of the rules.

At the local lvl it really doen't matter.

sb
 
Old 10-20-2002, 05:29 AM   #16
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Metalform, 10 round .40 mags? I want on this bandwagon. How far will they stick out of the bottome of an SA mag well. This would create much industry and competitor excitement (longtime coming).

Kevin
 
Old 11-26-2002, 11:43 PM   #17
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The extended dust cover is there to specifically single out 1911s (otherwise glocks, certain CZs and clones would be illegal) and the reason it singles out the 1911 is because Bill Wilson wanted to keep out "bad 1911s" Funny how bull barrels used to not be legal until wilson started making them. I like IDPA but some of their rules need serious modification. (especially the "get shot while I am fumbling with this mag" reload.
Just my $.02 worth
 
Old 11-27-2002, 12:34 AM   #18
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The first thing I would do is ban the phrase "in real life". In real life I carry full length dust covers and I don't down load my mags to 10 rounds if they hold more. Second the "get shot in the head while I reload" reload. Its still fun and I will play the game like the rules are. But I would feel much better about this TR and RWR if I knew of just one person from the several LE and Military people I know that didn't laugh when they heard what a TR and RWR were.
 
Old 12-06-2002, 10:35 AM   #19
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I purchased a Kimber Pro Carry II HD chambered for .38 super. It has a factory STOCK 4" bushingless "cone barrel". I e-mailed IDPA and asked if the gun would qualify for ESP because the "cone" barrel was STOCK and not a MODIFICATION. The rule specifically outlaws "cone" barrels under impermissible MODIFICATIONS but dosn't say anything about factory STOCK "cone" barrels. IDPA e-mailed me back stating that "currently no cone barrels are permissible in ESP division."

Is this contrary to the rule book? Yes.

A couple months ago I read an article in one of the gun rags which included the fact that IDPA allowed extended mag releases on all Glocks because one of the original factory guns had them (24L perhaps?) installed as original equipment. This, however seems directly contradictory to my situation.

The extended dust cover situation seems to be fall into the same category, stock equipment that isn't specifically out-lawed in the rule book and it's unclear whether it's legal or not.

It's unfortunate that IDPA hasn't taken the initiative to clarify its rule book now that so many clear issues have arisen, the above-situation being the tip of the iceberg. Obviously when you start something new it will have to be tweeked. What's unfortunate is that IDPA has been around long enough and has a large enough following that such measures are long overdue. :evil:

My two cents. Keep shooting, have fun!
 
Old 02-08-2003, 10:56 PM   #20
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How long does the extended dust cover have to be to be legal?

ie

I take my sti and have the dustcover milled back 1/4" so it's not the same length as the slide. Now is it legal? or is it 1/2" of course I still need a bushing barrel...

I wonder if Bill has thought of that?

sno
 
Old 02-10-2003, 05:08 AM   #21
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It all depends on whether your STI is chambered for .45 ACP! :roll:
 
Old 02-17-2003, 09:11 PM   #22
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Current IDPA rules

Back when I had time to read the gazillion daily emails, I belonged to the Yahoo Groups IDPA email list. A lot of good folks are active there, and I learned a lot. Especially in reference to the current rules interpretation of the latest rule book.

(Not everyone always gets this book at the same time, and the interpretations updates on this list were straight from folks who know the scoop- read IDPA HQ.)

I haven't been active in that list for quite a while, so the real rule may have changed, but here goes anyway.....

My understanding, and the way we seem to run at our club, is that full length dust covers are verboten, period. This is like some other rules I disagree with, but it's IDPA's attempt to prevent an expensive equipment race like in IPSC. I can't really argue with this. Heck, there are real life laws that s*ck, but I live by them anyway.

Now, the other half to this rule is that, at the local level, your local club may allow these dust covers if the Match Director approves. It's his match, he is in charge, and if the gun is streetable, then at the local level OK. Of course, at at a State or National match: sorry, not allowed.

The third half is the two year process to change equipment rules.

I used my Coonan (which met the production quota requirement, but has a full length dustcover) in ESP in one match last year, with Sparks leather. It was fun, and I need to practice reloads on closed slides!! This 1911 based pistol is barely a tad bigger than a 5" 1911, and chambers the .357 Magnum round for revolvers. Local match, the MD checked it out and said fine. I need to do this again, it was great.
 
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