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Old 01-11-2011, 01:40 PM   #1
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Problem with Kahr Magazines

I have been researching the kahr pm's for quite some time now. Trying to decide if i should buy, and which to buy, the 9mm or 40s&w. However i see over and over about FTF, and a must to charge them with the slide release. A very good video on you tube regarding the magazines bothers me. If you load 6, or 7 rounds on the extended mag, the rounds on top point down and not up to feed properly. Why can't kahr fix this? I really want to buy one for carry, but am worried about reliability. I know people will say they are not having problems, but i see too many on the forums. Why can't i find Glock problems? Is replacing the magazines with pro mags really the way to go? How do you get the confidence to buy a carry pistol, if you have reservations on reliability?

Last edited by dave606; 01-11-2011 at 01:54 PM.
 
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Old 01-11-2011, 06:08 PM   #2
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Kahr hasn't fixed the magazines, because there is no problem.

The downward pointing top round is just a feature of the design and causes no problems.
All the Kahr pistols do this and most are very reliable.
People look at the downward pointing round and don't see that on other guns so they just decide that the magazines are defective.
If the magazine design was defective ALL Kahr pistols would jam constantly....They don't.

On the internet, you have to learn to be selective about what you believe, and who you believe.
A lot of what you'll see about guns is disgruntled customers who are angry and condemn everything about a brand, some who are just repeating what they've heard and don't even own the gun, and some outright fakery just to stir up trouble. Mixed in there are a few attempts to sabotage a brand because the poster has some sort of grudge.
It's common to see someone who got a bad gun, then takes every possible opportunity to run them down or damage their reputation by claiming the gun is a defective design or is poorly made.
You'll see people who may or may actually not have had a genuine problem, and when the company didn't meet their unreasonable demands, are attempting to punish the company by trying to convince people the guns or company are no good.
You'll recognize these people after someone posts something about a good experience or bad experience with a brand, and they quickly post about how rotten the gun is and often how you were a fool to buy one.

As with any gun of any cost, you'll see all kinds of problems on the internet.
The most problems in the Kahr's do appear to be the polymer framed guns but those are usually problems with the polymer frame itself.
The steel guns run very well.
You hear plenty of problems about Glock pistols, and every other brand.
As example the famous exploding Glock's.

As for reliability, no matter what gun or what the price, you simply buy one and see if it works. If it doesn't, you send it back to the company on their dime and let them fix it. This is no different than a new TV, a new car, or a new egg beater.

Some pointers about Kahr pistols:
Promag magazines are not good quality. With almost all of the micro-guns use ONLY genuine factory magazines.
While some people have luck with aftermarket mags, most don't, especially Promag.
The Kahr magazines are very high quality and specifically designed to work in their guns. These micro guns are operating right on the edge of what's possible in such a small package. Changing magazines or recoil springs is asking for trouble where none exists.
Micro guns are not like full sized guns. You can't play around with them this way because there's no room for variation.
Buy only Kahr mags.

The company is very clear that the gun requires a 200 round break in period, and a few need a little more. Most never give any problems from the first round. Don't be shocked if the gun gives some trouble in the first 200 rounds, but most don't.

The reason for loading from the slide lock is because you have a tiny, hard to grip gun with a very strong spring. Too many people try to "slingshot" the slide and simply fail to pull it all the way to the rear. Of course, they blame the gun or the "defective magazine" when it fails to feed.
After the gun gets broken in, most can be sling-shotted, but you have to make sure you pull the slide all the way back or it will fail to feed, just like any other gun.

You may have to experiment to find a brand and type of ammo your specific gun "likes". This is nothing new for any gun.
Too many people just decide their new gun WILL be used with a specific ammo, and when it won't work well, they blame the gun.
I've seen this many times. The owner says the gun is junk and trades it in. The new owner tries other ammo and has a 100% reliable gun.

The Kahr is a "people shooter" not a target gun or a range toy.
The only thing that counts is reliability. Too many people demand target gun accuracy and aren't happy when the Kahr won't shoot all 10's.

The Kahr has a trigger that was designed to feel like a S&W double action revolver. If you're used to 1911's or the modern short action guns, you may not like the Kahr at first.
The trigger is long and has a long return. That's how it was designed to work.
I tell people to shoot it like it's a revolver. You have to "learn" the Kahr trigger before you can shoot it fast or more accurately.
Too many people try the trigger and immediately start trying to install lighter springs or figure out how to shorten the reset. Result.... an unreliable gun.
If you want a lighter trigger or shorter reset... buy something else.

The Kahr is possibly this generations "Gold Standard" in a small micro defense gun. It's expensive, because the quality is high.
Many tens of thousands have been sold, and naturally some had problems.
As naturally, you seldom hear about all the tens of thousands that had no problems at all, but you hear constantly about the few who do.

If Kahr had "bad magazines" or any other constant design problem the company would have been out of business many years ago.
The fact that they're still in business, expanding and doing fine, and a lot of cops buy Kahr pistols, should tell you something.

The bottom line is, again, like ANY gun including the vaunted Glock, all brands will have problems with a small percentage. If you do, that's what the new gun warranty is for.
If it doesn't, you worried for nothing.

Last, you seem to have heavy reservations about the Kahr. Unless you can actually handle and fire one, possibly you shouldn't buy one.
If you're already sure Kahr has a defective magazine, even though they aren't, you'll probably start off not liking it, and the first bobble during break in will convince you it's no good.

Your choice.

Last edited by dfariswheel; 01-11-2011 at 06:24 PM.
 
Old 01-11-2011, 06:34 PM   #3
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The Kahr Mag Problem

I know the mag problem is a very hard fix. You can not single stack ammo that tapers. Glock solved this problem by double stacking the magazines. Rifles with high capacity use curved magazines. When you have tapered ammo in 9mm after 5 rounds they start to get unstable. So Kahr uses the slide release method of charging, so that the inertia is high enough to force the unstable or misaligned round to go into battery. If you slowly relax the slide on a glock it will just suck up it up into the chamber, because it is pointed right into the chamber. How does pro mag take a single stack 9mm, and keep the top round stable, is what i want Kahr to address. I am not saying pro mags are better, but the top cartridge has support under the bullet end and Kahr's mags do not. I have worked with machines my whole life and know there is room for improvement in the magazines.

Last edited by dave606; 01-11-2011 at 06:52 PM.
 
Old 01-12-2011, 05:58 PM   #4
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Kahr doesn't use the slide release method to cure a defect in the magazine design.
They use the slide release method because it's simply too easy to botch the load due to having a tiny, hard to hold gun with a very strong recoil spring.
Too many people were trying to sling shot the slide and failing to do it correctly, so Kahr recommends the slide stop method.

If you'd like Kahr to address the magazine design, I'd suggest you contact Kahr and talk it over with them.
They seem to have the idea their magazine design is a good one, and the vast majority of owners have to agree since we have perfectly reliable guns.
The gun and magazine was designed by owner Justin Moon, who has some very impressive degrees in engineering.

Again, since you seem to already be of the mind that Kahr isn't very good, I'd suggest you not buy one because it's unlikely to convince you otherwise.
There are other micro guns made that might be more to your liking.
 
Old 01-13-2011, 02:56 AM   #5
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The Kahr Mag Problem

Kahr does have an inherent problem with 9mm magazines. If you stack more than 5 tapered cartridges in a single stack you can not support the bullet end of the cartridge. Glock solved this with the double stack and high capacity rifle by curving the magazine. You will notice if you only put 4 or less in your pm9 you can ease your slide down and it will chamber every time. If you have 6 or 7 it will get caught 90% of the time. I know dfariswheel thinks this how it was designed, but i think it is an inherent problem. I don't think Kahr wanted those top 5 or 6 rounds to hang up.
 
Old 01-13-2011, 05:28 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave606 View Post
I know the mag problem is a very hard fix. You can not single stack ammo that tapers. Glock solved this problem by double stacking the magazines.
I usually stay out of these technical issue dilemas, but I have to disagree here. Glock had nothing to do with any issue related to feeding issues of 9mm pistols or any tapered cartridges for that matter. Neither is the statement that you cannot single stack tapered cartridges accurate.

High capacity 9mm pistols have been around long before Gaston Glock applied for his patent. Browning Hi-Power ring a bell from 1935? S&W 59 from the 1970s?, CZ75 and HKVP70 all predated the Glock. From the development of the 9mm Luger there have been many single stacks that have performed admirably for the last 80 some years. What would call the P-08 Luger, P38 Walther, S&W Model 39,Colt 1911 in 9mm, all clones in 9mm, SIG P225 and P239, HK P7 series,the Walther PPS, I could go on and on and on. You get the point.

As a 35 year law enforcement officer, Sgt.& trainer, most weapon malfunctions I have seen are shooter induced. Improper stance, grip, weapon manipulation, sighting. Second was worn improper parts changes. Very rarely was it an actual weapon or mag problem.

Last edited by Sarge405; 01-13-2011 at 10:21 AM.
 
Old 01-13-2011, 05:44 PM   #7
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Sarge, you're on the money as usual. Some years ago, I attended Massad Ayoob's 2 day Lethal Force Institute's training event on personal protection. All participants had CCW permits and were armed. A fellow classmate had a brand new Kahr 9mm, and it was passed around when a group of us went to supper with Mas. None of us had handled one, and we all marvelled at it's diminutive size and ease of concealment. After supper, we went to a range to do some shooting. Mas took that fellow's Kahr, which had NEVER been shot before. At 50', he shot a one ragged hole group. Needless to say, I was VERY IMPRESSED with both Mas and the Kahr.

Last edited by one eye joe; 01-14-2011 at 06:17 AM.
 
Old 01-14-2011, 04:37 AM   #8
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Joe,
Mas and I go back quite a few years. I have been to LFI-1,2,3.
 
Old 01-14-2011, 06:08 AM   #9
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He's such a great guy, isn't he Sarge. Very humble and down to earth......( a lot like you)
 
Old 01-14-2011, 06:33 AM   #10
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Humble,hmm.......

Back to topic, where is Dave606? Does he not want to provide any substantive proof for his statements?
 
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