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Old 12-30-2006, 08:08 PM   #1
jrw
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kimber external extractor

What is actually wrong with kimber's external extractor?
 
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Old 01-10-2007, 01:15 PM   #2
jrw
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Does no one know? Is it just a dead board?
 
Old 01-10-2007, 02:47 PM   #3
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Even Kimber couldn't figure it out. They went through several different revisions of the extractor, gave up and went back to an internal extractor.
 
Old 01-13-2007, 05:48 PM   #4
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Kimber External Extractors

Well I have two 1911 .45acp Kimbers both have the External Extractors and both have not had any problems. The extractors got off to a bad start IMHO by Kimber trying to fix many that were really just the owners own doing not Kimbers. I find the Internal Extractors also can have FTE problems. Kimber just dropped the External in many but not all of their 1911s mostly because they cost more then Internal ones. Most other Mfgs use a External Extractor and I feel it's a step forward. Sorry Kimber did not stick with them.
 
Old 01-13-2007, 08:21 PM   #5
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Re: Kimber External Extractors

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyGunner
....Kimber just dropped the External in many but not all of their 1911s mostly because they cost more then Internal ones. Most other Mfgs use a External Extractor and I feel it's a step forward. Sorry Kimber did not stick with them.
I'm afraid that you've got it backwards. Kimber originally switched from the internal extractor to the external extractor to save money. The external extractor costs less and is a drop-in part. Internal extractors cost more and require more labor to adjust, which also adds to the cost.

I'm not bashing an external extractor per se, it's just that Kimber's design didn't work very well. Unfortunately, the fact that you've have never had a problem with your two Kimbers is statistically meaningless. I wish I knew what the actual numbers were but apparenly it was enough of a problem that Kimber not only switched back to a more expensive extractor but also spent money to retool/reprogram their machinery.
 
Old 01-14-2007, 05:42 PM   #6
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Kimber Ex. Ex.

Well if my two Kimbers with external extractors never having a problem with FTF problems are statistically meaningless. Give me some of your statistically meaningful ones proving they are a problem.

Yeah Yeah Dave I know your a CUSTOM gunsmith I read your ADD. So why not take care of that LARGE backlog of gunsmiting you say you have.
 
Old 01-14-2007, 06:48 PM   #7
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Re: Kimber Ex. Ex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyGunner
Well if my two Kimbers with external extractors never having a problem with FTF problems are statistically meaningless. Give me some of your statistically meaningful ones proving they are a problem....
I'll say it again because you must have missed it the first time:
"I wish I knew what the actual numbers were but apparenly it was enough of a problem that Kimber not only switched back to a more expensive extractor but also spent money to retool/reprogram their machinery."

I'm sorry you've taken this so personally but the fact of the matter is that when there are thousands of an item that have been produced, a test sample of 2 is statistically insignificant regardless of what the product is. I've seen a lot more than two that had regular failures to extract (even after replacing the extractors with "improved" ones from Kimber) but those numbers are statistically meaningless too. The fact is, the only ones who know are Kimber employees and I doubt they will share that data with anyone.

Kimber is an extremely cost-conscious company. It's one of the factors that helped them turn the 1911 business upside down when they first started manufacturing them. I don't believe they would spend the money to retool, switch from the cheaper external exttractor to a more expensive part and spend more labor fitting that part just because of an internet rumor.
 
Old 01-14-2007, 11:51 PM   #8
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Re: Kimber Ex. Ex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyGunner
Well if my two Kimbers with external extractors never having a problem with FTF problems are statistically meaningless. Give me some of your statistically meaningful ones proving they are a problem....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Berryhill
... I'm sorry you've taken this so personally but the fact of the matter is that when there are thousands of an item that have been produced, a test sample of 2 is statistically insignificant regardless of what the product is. I've seen a lot more than two that had regular failures to extract (even after replacing the extractors with "improved" ones from Kimber) but those numbers are statistically meaningless too. ...

Mr. Berryhill, I understand what you're saying. I appreciate it and the other good info you take the time to impart. I believe HappyGunner is a lucky person in that he has two of the good ones. Have myself had good luck w/some other makes/models that seemingly gave others much trouble even to the point of condemnation.
 
Old 01-15-2007, 10:00 AM   #9
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How many Kimbers????

Just one quick question Dave how many Kimbers do you own internal or external? And don't just toss in a bunch of what others own that you know of.
 
Old 01-15-2007, 12:06 PM   #10
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I don't currently own any but I wouldn't hesitate to buy or carry several models if I found a good deal. However, none of those would include an external extractor. I don't know why you take such offense to this but I've seen enough of them fail to not be comfortable using one as anything but a range-only pistol. I'm glad that yours work well for you. Shoot them and enjoy them.

I'm always keeping my eyes open for a nice, clean pre-Series II Royal. Can you hook me up?
 
Old 01-15-2007, 12:58 PM   #11
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A few more questions if you don't mind

I am just wondering if you helped old Harold Fish with his Kimber?

I also would like to read the full facts about the external extractor failures you have seen happen. What models were they 5"4"3"? Like did they just break? Just pop out? What type Ammo. was being used when the failures happened? I would worry if I had a FTF or FTE using a quality carry type Ammo. Example Rem. Golden Saber or Fed. Hydro shok. maybe Hornady TAP or Speer GoldDot Corbons Pow R Ball.

I also have a 1911 5" Kimber the Custom TLE that has the internal extractor.

Most of my Carry is with my Glock23 and S.A. XD-45 Service. But any of my Kimber 1911 handguns with the right Ammo. I would have no fear about depending on them.

When someone takes a stand against the External Extractor Kimbers or any other Handgun Mfg. I would really like to read a full report with all the truthful facts. Not just {Quote" I read it in the 1911 Forum so it has to be right" End of Quote}

Anyway that my 2% on the subject.
 
Old 01-28-2007, 04:21 PM   #12
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Hello jrw:
I dont know if you own a Kimber with an external extractor. I have the TLE II and use it mainly for home defense. I use 230gr. GSHP for my defense rounds.
I have close to 5000 rounds[about 200 rounds of the GSHP] though it since I had Kimber install their "small hands package"on it. Before the installation I had many "limp wrist" type malfunctions; after, I've had none .
I have no practical pistolsmith experience but I think the problem with these extractors is that most of us need three hands to reinstall them after cleaning so I believe many owners are not field striping the extractors often enough to clean them and this allows the "crud" to build up and make malfuctions more likely. I clean out my internal extractors after each firing session but clean my external after about 300 rounds. I usually have my wife's help when reinstalling the external.
I called Kimber about this problem to see if there was some kind of "trick"' to reinstalling extertals but they just about admitted that it was a three handed operation. My wife and I would appriciate help from anyone on this board with this problem.
 
Old 01-31-2007, 08:39 AM   #13
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I swear a huge amount of the problems people encountered with Kimber externals were their own doing, but didn't realize it. A lot of aftermarket 1911 magazines didn't agree with the Kimber external extractors, and often damaged them in the process. Often it was just the tiny spring in the external that needed replacing, with many people doing so with the Wolff Gunspring offering. Read of rock-solid results doing this on more than one thread.

I've got a couple Kimber CDP II's (Pro and Compact) with externals with many thousands of rounds through them and have never, and I mean NEVER, had a single problem. Then again the only mags ever used were the actual OEM mags that came with the gun, then later the new Kimber Kim-Pro Tac Mags, both in 7-round versions only. I can pretty much guarantee that neither of these guns will ever experience extraction problems while under my personal ownership.
 
Old 02-25-2007, 12:26 AM   #14
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I have an external extractor on my Ultra Eclipse 3". I'll admit that I was aware of the issues that people were having as posted on various websites. I decided to purchase anyways. First off there were FTEs, but it didn't take me long to realize that they were caused by the Wolf ammo that I was breaking the gun in with. Switching ammo cleared up the problem and the first hundred rounds only produced a FTE or FTF once in a while. I'll add here that I've used the two Kimber provided magazines exclusively. I've put about 800 rounds in it and haven't had any futher problem - except with Wolf ammo. I began reading posts about a year ago submitted by people indicating that Kimber was returning their external extractor pistols, (which were sent in for extractor related repairs) with internal extractors. The number of posts relating to these types of repairs resulted in me contacting Kimber to see if I could replace the external extractor with an internal one. Kimber customer service basically said that since I was not having any problems with the external extractor that it made no sense to replace it. They also indicated that they "were not" repairing extractor related problems by changing the external with an internal. Obviously, it seems to me that Kimber must have been concerned with the extractor issue enough to start selling most of their models with an internal extractor.
 
Old 02-20-2008, 04:00 PM   #15
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Re: kimber external extractor

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw
What is actually wrong with kimber's external extractor?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Berryhill
Even Kimber couldn't figure it out. They went through several different revisions of the extractor, gave up and went back to an internal extractor.
What exactly was wrong is that the hook on the extractor was too short and did not engage the casing rim completely. They went thru several tries at fixing this (2 iterations of new extractors) but they did not work well either.

They never mentioned this, but I think I know why they could not get it right......
Instead of me sending my gun back, I decided to fix it myself and filed a bit of material off the inside side of the extractor arm thereby allowing the hook to engage the rim completely/correctly. I never had any problems after. What I did notice is that by removing this material the "Chamber Loaded" indicator (red mark) on the top of the extractor was no longer visible, or only slightly visible. Maybe this is why Kimber had such a tough time with this. They wanted the extractor to work and also wanted this chamber loaded indicator to be visible.

In the end...they "saw the light" and gave up on the external extractor idea.
 
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