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External extractor: Why bother?

9K views 18 replies 13 participants last post by  mnealtx 
#1 ·
Kimber has a pistol with an external extractor. In the "Gun Review" section of this forum, there is an excellent review of a Dan Wesson Patriot .45 with an external extractor.

I searched the forum, but found no real reason for changing a 1911 to an external extractor.

Is this fad? Is there a valid reason for having an external extractor? What are the pros and cons?

Slow_but _sure
 
#8 ·
S&W / Kimber....

It had better be unique. I think the 1911 market has got to be getting full. There are only so many slices of pie to go around and I like my Smiths but already have a Kimber Team Match II & a Springfield. I can't wait to see what they call it..........Hmmm....Kimth&Swister? :lol:
 
#9 ·
They will call it an S & W. The 1911 market has first seen Colt as king ( no competition) Springfield took it from them in the 1980's. Kimber took it in the 90's. It is ripe for the taking. There are a LOT of dealers who are very unhappy with Kimbers distribution/service. We will see....
 
#11 ·
External?

The external, spring-loaded extractor addressed an issue on the 1911
pistol that has resurfaced in recent times. What it does is to allow the
pistol to push-feed rather than control feed. When this happens, the extractor hook is forced to snap over the case rim. Knowledgeable
folk warn not to drop a round in the chamber and release the slide,
but the pistol is doing just that under certain circumstances. The proof
is the small ding on the edge of the case rim that has plagued handloaders and reloaders when the dings kick up burrs and refuse to
allow the case to enter a shellholder. The other sign is the occasional
rideover feed on the last round.

The last round is when it generally happens. Contributing factors are:
A weak magazine spring.

Heavy recoil spring, resulting in excessive slide velocity during the RTB.

The relieved magazine feed lips, rather than the older GI Hardball type,
which release the round too early and too abruptly. Inertia is the main
culprit here, and the hardball magazine style counters it to some degree.

JMB was no doubt aware of this glitch, and specified that spring steel be
used for the extractors, and for that little dimple on the top of the magazine followers. A spring steel extractor will allow for that snapover feed without breakage and loss of tension that we have with barstock and
MIM extractors. Hook design was also a little different on the older pistols.
The front was angled a little more sharply, which formed a camming angle
to aid in opening the extractor when the cartridge got ahead of the
breechface.

The external extractor is one approach, but it negates the ability to
detail strip the slide quickly in the field. For some of us, this is an
option that we don't want to give up.

What to do? Modification of the extractor hook and outboard tensioning
pad to reduce resistance to the snapover is one thing that will help.
We can go to a heavier magazine spring, or bend the bottom coil on
the open end of the mag spring downward to increase the tension and
speed up the rate on the spring a little will also help. Going down on the
recoil spring rate one or two pounds may show some improvement,
especially if last-round rideover feeds are noticed.

Believe it or not, a too-firm grip can contribute. If the pistol is failing to
return to battery with the hook rammed against the case rim, try shooting
one-handed for a while. The problem may disappear or be greatly
reduced in frequency.

In short, the external extractor is a band-aid fix for a snapover feed...
but one that is generally accepted by modern manufacturers, and
seems to be the coming thing. The 1911 doesn't need one, if properly
tuned. Since I adopted the practice of modifying my extractors and
magazine springs, I have neither lost an extractor, nor have I needed
to adjust tension on one...even MIM extractors. For the record, I
average somewhere between 50 and 60,000 round a year through
3 different pistols, including an Auto Ordnance that hasn't missed a beat
in 25,000 rounds. (That HAS to be a record for an AO) :lol:

Hope this sheds some light on the issue.
T
 
#12 ·
Good post, T. Another reason for a mfg to adopt an external unit is that the same part can be used in multiple applications (different guns). For instance, someone e-mailed me the other day, stating that the "new" external extractor, as used in a new model by a certain mfg out there, appears the to be the exact same part being used by another, closely related firm, in one of their auto-loaders. Hmmm... Hey, parts is parts!
 
#13 ·
re Extractors

Thanks Dave.

One point that I forgot to mention. I read somewhere that Wilson Combat
strongly recommends the use of Sellier & Bellot ammunition for reliability.
I thought that an odd caveat, since any properly set-up pistol should function with any decent quality ammunition. I bought a box of S&B,
and examined it. It took about 15 seconds to see why...

The case rim on S&B ammo is heavily radiused at the back. The rims look
smaller than spec, but are actually about .473 inch in diameter. That
radius aids in camming the extractor open with less impact stress on the
front of the hook. Seems that the old watchmaker recognized this issue,
and his ammo requirements reflect it.

At the present, the only supplier of spring steel extractors in the country
(that I am aware of)
is The Cylinder & Slide Shop. All others are inferior and must be modified
to prevent breakage or loss of tension. It's a fairly simple matter, and
can be done in about 15 minutes.

Take care,
T
 
#14 ·
From what I read, California requires a loaded chamber indicator to be legal and other states have or will follow this requirment. Looks like Kimber is moving to meet this requirment. My results with a new Kimber Pro Tactical gives me reason to question the reliability of the new extractor as built by Kimber. The basic design seem to work well for Glock. I'll wait to fire a few more hundred rounds through it before sending it back to the factory.
 
#17 ·
Re: S&W / Kimber....

ROYGUN said:
It had better be unique. I think the 1911 market has got to be getting full. There are only so many slices of pie to go around and I like my Smiths but already have a Kimber Team Match II & a Springfield. I can't wait to see what they call it..........Hmmm....Kimth&Swister? :lol:
Since when has Smith and Wesson ever been unique with their autos. They steal all of their designs for autos from other manufacturers. Just look at the SW99.
 
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