LordPhoenix

The LEAs around me all have rules against carrying anything off duty that is a larger caliber than their duty weapon. Is that normal?

Patrick

Our agency forbids carry of anything smaller or weaker than .38 SPL/9mm. There is no upper limit, nor have I ever heard of a department doing this. Well, I take that back. NYPD, from what I understand, specifies only a handful of guns that may be used off duty.

LordPhoenix

The county police here carry the P-92 and cannot carry bigger than a 9 ooff duty or a magazine capacity less than 8.

Patrick

So an officer could carry a .22LR with 10+1 rounds, but not a small .45 with 6+1? Someone out there needs their head examined!

rscalzo

We allow anything in the 38 Spec,9mm or 40 S&W, revolver or D/A semi.

R.D. Scalzo
Secaucus PD
Secaucus, NJ

benelli

Anything we can carry on duty we can carry off duty as well. You could carry a .38 on duty and a .45 off duty if you wanted.

jnc36rcpd

Our officers carry a mix of .40 and 9mm SIGSauer 226's and 228's. We'll eventually transition to all .40. Off-duty/back-up policy does not allow any larger calibre than .40. I had hoped to get .45 and 357SIG authorized, but "the chief says no" (another well-reasoned management decision).

You'll find that many Maryland and Northeast/Mid-Atlantic departments are fairly conservative on weapon selection. This is also true of the federal government with the notable exception of the FBI.

rscalzo

Limiting the authorized weapons to 9mm/40cal. does one thing well....limits the types of ammo the department must purchase to on duty and weapons qualifications. Stocking five of six different types is a pain in the ass. :P

jnc36rcpd

A retired FBI agent told me about the nightmare he had ordering ammunition for his field office. The Bu authorizes a wide variety of firearms. Ammunition needs had to be projected for 9mm, .40, .45, .38, and even 10mm. This was in addition to the varied shotgun, SMG, carbine, and precision rifle needs. Overall, this must have been a real pain in the cuff case.

As it is, we have sixteen 9mm handguns fielded in our fifty officer agency. Our transition plan put the .40's in the hands of patrol officers first. The 9mm's are assigned to admin, detectives, and a few other stragglers. Most do not shoot regularly, but we need to anticipate what ammo needs they will have.

We did finally get the .380 SIG 230's previously issued to detectives who wished them off the street. Be safe.

rscalzo

We allow 38Spec/380/9mm/40 to be carried off duty. the officer must supply the ammo for any non 9/40 weapon as per our contract. We see very little in 38 or 380 any more. PPK's and Det. Specs. were popular :roll: years ago but no longer.

Sac Law Man

At my agency (Sacramento County Sheriff's Dept) we carry the new Sig 226 (rail) in 40 Cal or 9mm. Off-duty we can carry anything we want. A great policy...

GlenS

Beretta 96 with 180 grain Gold Dots on duty. Anything we want off duty.

norfdet893

Thought that I would chime in here. My department issues the Smith and Wesson 5946 with 147gr sub-sonic ammo. We are in the process of switching to either the Sig Pro 2009 (9mm) or the Glock 19/17 (9mm). Off duty we can only have (1) gun, although it can be anything bewteen .380 and 45. The problem is, is that this gun, while being an off duty gun also has to double as a back-up if needed. We can't seem to get the current thinkers to come off of this (1) additional gun rule.

spcwes

I do not understand why any department would try and take away right to carry from there officers by limiting what weapons they can carry. My question to all the states and departments with limits on what they can and can't carry is do you have a CCW law, and are there the same restrictions on the CCW's? That is a load of crap. If you are authorized to carry an off duty weapon it should be of you’re choosing and size. I am glad my state is not like that (Missouri). We can and do carry what we feel comfortable carrying. I carry a range of several different handguns depending what the dress is will determine the size of off duty weapon. No, not designer weapons but cloths fit differently and some weapons may not be appropriate for some outfits. My weapons range from a 9mm to a 44spl. That means 9mm, .40s&w, .45acp, 357sig&mag, 44spl.
I think there are some departments that need to change some polices. Most of the officers that carry off duty carry there own weapon and ammo so the department does not even worry about it. Just as long as they are proficient with there skills with that weapon that is all that matters. Just my opinion, that’s all. 8)

rscalzo

Our department allows off-duty carry of any revolver/pistol of 38/9mm or 40 S&W. #57 must carry 38 Specials only. In a urban area we must be concened about the type of weapon our officers are allowed to carry.

Very few of our officers even care about the type of weapons they are allowed to carry. It's hard enough to get them to qualify twice a year..

Capt. Richard Scalzo
Secaucus Police Dept.
Secaucus, NJ :cry:

spcwes

I can understand about the urban area being a factor of the cal. of the weapon but there are several cals that do not over penetrate. I do not know anything about your area and what the criminals arm themselves with but we as a whole need to make sure that we do not underarm our LE. I know that in my area there is rural and urban and we are also the #1 meth producing state in the US. That means a large amount of criminals in the urban areas and a large amount in the rural areas producing and stealing what they need to produce meth. The most common weapons that the officers will likely come across are shotguns and hunting rifles. We all need good weapons and ammo that can serve both purposes. This also concerns the training aspects. RCBD ammo is probably ideal for your area but not very cost effective. But you can turn a .38 spl into a high power rifle with no added pressure and hardly any risk of over penetration or ricochet. Still the cost of the ammo and training would be out of reach unless a quantity deal could be worked out. The ballistics of the 38spl is 1705 fps / 385 flbs. You can get the 40s&w with 2100 fps / 754 flbs or a 9mm with 2010 fps / 539 flbs. This ammo gives you the freedom to not worry about over penetration or ricochet. All the officers have to worry about is hitting the target.

rscalzo

On Duty weapons are limited to several models of S&W 9mm or 40cal.
Very few agencies in this area have varied from those cals. One or two have gone or 357SIG. or 45ACP. Those agencies are probably less than 5 percent of the state.

Capt. Richard Scalzo
Secaucus Police Dept.
Secaucus, NJ

kharmon

We have officers in our department that carry the Kel-Tec .32 cals as back up and off duty. In this part of the world we wear shorts and t-shirts ten months out of the year and they find this as easier to conceal. I have had as much luck carrying my Star Firestar .40 or my little 2 inch Taurus .357 mag off duty. The guys with the Kel-Tec's carry them clipped to the inside of their waste band or in their pocket...usually as a last ditch back up to their regular off duty gun.

spcwes

Just did a survey of our Deputies and 99% carry what I would call a large caliber off duty and the majority of them carry the 1911 in a .45 acp the rest are .40 S&W and about 3 nines. Two of the .40 S&W calibers are in 1911's. I carry all sorts of weapons off duty. I have to admit I have been carring a Glock 19 stuffed with about 16 127 +P+ Ranger Ts lately and have been pretty comfortable. Man, that weapon and the Glock 23 may be my favorite weapons of all times. Big time power, capacity, and accuracy. But back to the point, the Deputies carry what they want and the PD carry pretty much what they want but lean toward the .40S&W in a glock of some kind. 8)

rogue4070

The agency I work for in Georgia mandates that an off duty weapon has to be chambered for a round larger then .38/9mm and that the first round has to be fired double action(so that negates a single stack 1911). Since we carry the .40 caliber Glock family most officers carry a sub compact .40 caliber Glock 27. Uniform carries Glock 22's, Detectives(with the exception of me and the SWAT guys) Glock 23's, SWAT carry Glock 35's. The issue round is Winchester 180 grain SXT.
Even though all of the other detectives assigned to the division carry Glock 23's I chose to carry a Glock 22 because I liked the larger pistol. For off duty carry I flip flop between my 22 and a SIG 229 .40 caliber with CORBON 165 grain hollowpoints. I love both of them so generally which ever pistol I lay hands on first is the one I carry that day.

9MM

N.Y.P.D. and the New York City Correction Department strictly prohibits carrying anything other than a 9mm off duty. Our 9mm service weapons can be carried off duty and there are a list of sanctioned 9mm's that may be carried off duty also. Old timers like myself are granted the option of carrying the S&W .38 caliber Model as a bug and an off duty as well as the 9mm. Many oldtimers have reseigned themselves to sticking with the Model 10 as a "status symbol" of seniority. All officers hired from 1994 were 9mm trained the rest of us had the option to transition to the 9mm.

Here's a listing of N.Y.P.D's 9mm's :

Choice of Service Weapons : May be used Off duty also.

GLOCK 19
S&W 5946
Sig Sauer P226 *Provided they were purchased or issued prior to 07/31/95.
Beretta 92D Centurion * These were the "test" firearms issued to E.S.U. in 1988.

Off Duty :

S&W 3953 TSW
S&W 3914 DAO
GLOCK26
Beretta 8000
KAHR K9

.38 Caliber Revolvers :
* An officer may use these firearms provided they were purchased and owned prior to July 1, 1987.

S&W Model 10 4"
Colt Official Police
Colt Metropolitan Mark III
Dan Wesson Model 11 Fixed Barrel
Ruger Police Service Six
______________________________________________

New York City Correction Department

Service Weapons : May be used Off Duty also.

S&W 5946
S&W 6946 * If purchased before July 1, 2001
Sig Sauer P226
Sig Sauer P228
Beretta 92D Centurion


Off Duty Only

GLOCK 17
GLOCK 19
GLOCK 26
S&W 3914
S&W 3953
Sig Sauer P225* Must have been purchased prior to July 1, 2000.

.38 Calber Revolvers

S&W Model 10 4" * On/Off Duty

S&W Model 10 2" *
Ruger GP100 *

*Strictly Off Duty and must have been issued prior to July 1, 1987.
________________________________________________

The only exception to the above list are those assigned to specialized units.

The ammo is SPEER Gold Dot 124 grain +P Hollow Point ammo only. To be carried on and off duty.

norfdet893

how many police officers that have CCW permits carry whatever they want (department sanctioned or not) when they are off-duty?

9MM

New York City will not issue a CCW to ACTIVE Officers. Any officer involved in an off duty incident involving their firearm must carry any of the firearms listed above. If an officer is found to have used another firearm other than these they will be immediately disciplined, possibly pending termination and possibly criminal charges.

spcwes

What is the biggest reason for the strict 9mm carry on or off duty? I have always thought that NY carried 9mm for there duty weapon was because of the mass number of officers that have to be trained on the weapon and generally the $$$. If that is the case then they should be allowed to carry what they want off duty. As far as close quarter penetration the 9mm has about the same as some of the 45 and 40 ammo out there. 8)

9MM

The City mandates that all officers are to carry the same caliber they were trained with departmentally on and off duty to avoid any liability suits that may arise from off duty incidents. An officer who violates departmental policy by carrying a firearm other than permitted not only violates departmental rules and regs but also loses his/her indemnification by the department. Loosely translated, the department will not back the officer nor will they be afforded legal representation by the union or department for this violation.

New York City is one of the most populated citys' in the world. The city made the initial error of permitting fully jacketed 9mm rounds which turned tragic as evidenced in the Diallo shooting. There are very few "open spaces" here in the city as in other parts of the state. The chances of richochetting rounds is extremely higher than anywhere else plus the density of the population at any given time. Combine these two ingredients are you have the making of a tragedy waiting to happen.

A side note, I'm an officer and certified firearms trainer. I teach the entire curiculum including Use Of Force as well as actual firearms training. Unlike most departments N.Y.P.D. officers as a whole are not inclined to be enamored with firearms or are they given to take advantage of improving their skills other than annual requal. The department encourages all officers to utilize the open range to train on their own time and to become members of our Olympic Team which competes annually with other departments in the Police Olympics which has many areas of competition including firearms..

It seems that N.Y.P.D. officers as a group are not firearms enthusiasts as are other law enforcement departments within the city. Believe it or not the city Correction department trains their officers better and has a unit called the Prism which everyone trains with. It's a computer trainer which actually simulates real life situation so much so the unit fires back at the shooter! Correction Officers are required to go through the very same training as N.Y.P.D. these officers are more involved with honing their skills on and off duty. Many correction officers belong to private ranges and are involved with competitions. I find this interesting.

Moving onto two other departments Parole and Probation. Neither of these departments were required to carry a firearm on or off duty. Post 9-11 this changed all Parole and Probation officers were required and trained to carry 9mm.

There are over 44,000 N.Y.P.D. Officers, New York City Correction Officers 14,000 Parole and Probation Officers approximately 3,000 so far that's 61,000 officers that "may" carry a firearm other than they were trained with and idemnified with. This doesn't include Court Officers and other law enforcement officers in the city. Given these figures aside from N.Y.P.D. that's quite a bit of secondary firearms which these departments cannot attest to the skill level of the officers. This is the main reason why the city is so stringent in their requiring 9mm only. They can vouch for each officer trained and the level of proficiency. Any other caliber is a guess at best.

one eye joe

LEO's should be allowed to carry the off duty weapon of their choosing, with the requirements that it be AT LEAST a .38Spl, the Officer can qualify with it, and the Officer purchases his own hollowpoint ammo-----JMHO...

Sarge405

I saw this was old but I didn't bring it back, so here's my take.

I carry a 1911, .45acp on duty. My agency mandate says nothing larger off duty. How convenient!!!!!!!!!!

JimP

9mm - not to start a fight, but I'd be interested in your statement re: "The city made the initial error of permitting fully jacketed 9mm rounds which turned tragic as evidenced in the Diallo shooting".

Just how did the ROUND involved in the shooting influence the actual events necessitating the shooting?
BTW, let's NOT go down the unending terminal ballistics argument. Again - I'm fairly familiar with this situation and use it in many teaching scenarios. I'd be interested in your take on it.

Sarge405

JimP:
9mm's post was in 2004. You may not get a response now.

From what I remember NYPD did initially issue FMJs but eventually saw the light? The Diallo shooting if I remember was just simple poor shooting, poor lighting, poor situation, poor tactics??????

I don't recall which rounds were issued at the time but would it have made a difference considering the number of rounds fired at target to number of terminal hits?

JimP

I use it in teaching as it shows that folks can do everything right and a shooting can still be tragic; a good shoot...but tragic consequences. Pretty interesting study in physiological and psychological reaction to a deadly force encounter.

Sarge405

Remembering? He was running into a dark hallway, turned, reached into pocket and pulled object. Too dark too see it was a phone?Wallet? Officers fired?

JimP

anti-gang unit looking for dark-skinned serial rapist. Spot Diallo and pull up behind him; Diallo runs into building not his; can't get past the vestibule, keeps peeking out; cops approach in supporting positions, lead cop has gun out and down behind him; goes to step up and Diallo turns around with somethin dark in his hand; cop slips on step/falls backwards and canks off round into ground; supporting cops light up Diallo; rounds impacting him and vestibule keep him from going down (poor hit ratio as well); when dust settles, he's clutching wallet.

Tragic shoot but the cops acted reasonably under the circumstances.

The actual round used had no impact upon the decision or the legality of the shoot.

add 'usual suspects and vermin" come out of woodwork and lambaste the cops (Springsteen; Jackson; Sharpton; et al).

Clete451

Some have said the ball went through and through allowing Diallo to stay on his feet and causing the officers to continue to fire. I don't no how valid that point is, but that's what I heard. If you remember one of the complaints of the ignorant was how many times he was shot.

exfed2002

One thing that surprised me when I EOD'd with a Federal agency a long, long, long time ago, was the anti-gun attitudes of management.

Now I realize that for many of these folks, it's just a power game and they would play it anywhere they were. LE had better pensions and benefits, so they chose that. Didn't matter that they cared nothing for the job or knew nothing about it. Just look at the 124 man that the POS John Lindsay made the PC in NYC in the late 60's. He's still alive and well in left wing "police" think tanks. They are politicians first, and you are expendable assets to be used for their self-aggrandizement.

In this agency, you actually had to go to your supe and sign out a weapon. It was a running joke that they had them in the safe just in case they saw you getting beaten up outside the building, they could throw one out the window to the bad guy.

One time one of the new female agents asked to sign out a weapon to go to a bad area. Her supe said she should take Fred with her.

"I qualified with a 38, not with a Fred."

I got out of there, but it's basically a variation anywhere you went. There's a reason why the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence, and it ain't due to sunshine.

Now, why did I retire early again?

aryfrosty

I will look at this from the position of being a retired Officer. I spent 25 years on the job in Georgia and for the first 19 no agency in our area issued weapons or ammo. I have observed that if the agency doesn't issue weapons they have less control over what is carried. Same goes for ammo. If the city doesn't buy it then they can't require an Officer to use a certain type or caliber. We depended on a sense of common understanding for off duty carry...we never carried unacceptable weapons or ammo. For a long period of time before he got the city to issue guns and ammo the chief carried a S&W M29, 4" with magnum loads. HE also qualified with it which established the procedure that if you want to carry it then you need to be able to qualify with it. Once we went with Beretta 96D Centurions we were issued WW Black Talons. The next year the chief pulled the Berettas due to a lack of trust in them by some officers. He then issued Sig P229s. We were welcome to carry the Sigs off duty, and if we did we had to use the WW loads. If the Officer chose to carry something else then they could. But still they needed to qualify with it. The agency I was with still issues the Sig P229s to this day.

Kevin A

aryfrosty, my department is like your old one. When I got hired in 1992, you had to buy a pistol from a list. I got a Glock 22. The department now issues Glock 22C, but you can still carry what you had before if you wish. Off-duty, I carry a Kimber Ultra-carry II in 45 and also have a Keltec 380 for a back-up. I know of a few officers that carry full size 1911's off-duty but this has to be approved.

Poohgyrr

Old thread brought back, but around here, no. Currently, our primary on duty is restricted to Sig only in 40 or 45. If we carry the Dept issue DAK Sig, then the Dept maintains it. If we carry a personal Sig, then we maintain it.

The list for off duty & backup is much more flexible: autoloader rounds are 380 for minimum; revolver rounds are 38 Special minimum, non magnum rounds are good, and 357 Magnum. If we choose something other than 40 S&W or 45ACP, then we buy the (approved) ammo. We maintain our personal pistols. Brand names and approved.

Performance is pretty much related to range time and budgets (Dept or family).... Real life....