KainThornn

I've been wanting a 1911 for personal defense but have always been skittish about "pocket" models, accuracy of those short barrels being the issue. Since it's gonna be a concealed carry weapon is barrel length really much of an issue? I'd also be going to the target range and sharpening my skills, but I wanted to be able to hit a target 20 yards away...

eodtom

A short barrel is not intrinsically less accurate than a longer one. If the pistol has a quality barrel and is set up correctly it will shoot accurately. It will be more difficult to do, given the shorter sight radius. By way of example, I had a Colt Officer's ACP once that would bust clay pigeons (stationary) at 25yds. My Kimber Compact (.40S&W) will cut shot holes at 15yds if I do my part.
It is worth mentioning that compact 1911's don't generally come with adjustable sights. All ammunition is not created equal either. You'll want to try several brands and bullet weights to find one that prints where the sights point. Quality ammunition will be more consistent than bargain brands.
If your pistol of choice comes with a dovetailed front sight, you can easily change the height of the sight to accomodate your ammunition. If not, it is a gunsmith operation to adjust point of impact.
Assuming you're wanting to use it for personal defense. At the ranges that you can articulate the level of threat necessary for deadly force, match grade accuracy is not much of an issue.
Hope this helps your decision.

KainThornn

Thanks! I'm trying to escape from my Beretta, with Hydra Shoks it's a decent personal defense pistol but .45 has a greater knock down than 9mm. Not to mention virtually any 1911 is considerably thinner.

Darklon

Take a look at www.trausch.com , they make a grip for the Beretta 92 that takes 1/4 inch off the width of the grip making it feel alot like the M1911. You will have to shorten the grip screws about .030 so that they will not extend out of the grip screw bushing and drag on the magazine. The grips go for a little over 30 bucks plus shipping if I remember correctly. When I got the grips i ordered a set of hex head grip screws from Brownells and shortened them. Try it you will like them if you like the feel of the M1911 grip. I would also get a M1911, that way you would have both pistols handy to really test the feel of the grips. (grin)

Swamp

I wish I had downloaded the picture but I saw a ballistic gel test comparing 9mm, .45, .40 and a couple of others and quite frankly there wasn't much difference between them. Then if you read the FBI study results, FirearmsTactical.com - Web Site Index and Navigation Center of the lethality of different calibers you'll even find that a 9mm has an advantage over a .45 in the winter months. I'll combine their findings with a story I read mixed with my situation; (hope that didn't confuse you) I'm a BIG guy and in the winter I wear an NRA 5.11 Tactical Jacket which is constructed with several layers of essentially canvas. What they found is a .45 hitting a surface like that jacket or similar fabrics, backed my shock absorbing body mass (fat) virtually catches the bullet because of the size of the hole it's trying to punch through all that. A 9mm has sufficient energy focused on a smaller point and is more likely to penetrate and still have lethal results.

A story I read; a bad (over sized) guy was shot with the contents of a full magazine from a police officers gun. When the officer was out of ammunition, the BG shot one .22 round at him which caught him under the arm pit missing his BP vest killing him; the BG lived.

This post is authored my a guy who carries and owns primarily .45 ACP macho, macho pistols but understands bigger holes does not necessarily mean deader BG's. In the final analysis, carrying a .22 is better than nothing; hell the mafia has used them almost exclusively for decades, and hole size v. energy is very important.

If you want to see accurate ballistic gel tests, look for tests done on clothed ballistic gel slabs; it makes a big difference.

PS Do a little investigating on Hydra Shocks you might change you mind on using them for defense.

Oh I forgot to mention information on the title of this thread. First of all at 20 yards if you shoot someone you're going to have a more difficult time defending yourself for killing him/her. Remember your first obligation is to flee; most personal protection shots are close enough targets that aiming is not even necessary. My first priority is dependability then conceal ability which is sometimes a difficult decision with the inherent FTF problems of real short handguns. American Rifleman recently had an article on pocket sized pistols and most of the guns tested had FTF issues. A gun you might have to throw at someone is not worth carrying.

Just my .02; hope it helps.

Swamp

I just figured out being notified about replies isn't the default and need to post something in all the threads I posted in. Dang.

KainThornn

Thanks for the 0.02! The 9mm is definitely cheaper to shoot, but with the age of my Beretta and their outstanding customer service (that is, sarcasm) I'm still looking for a reliable shooter. Had thought about getting a Taurus PT for price and apparently awesome repair policy (not to mention fitting the holster ) but I wanted something with a better track record, thus the 1911. Maybe a 1911 in 9mm..?

Swamp

Depending on your budget, Kimber makes several models in 9mm and you cant ask for more reliability, at least in my experience.

The caliber debate will never end and there's a story to defeat every story about effectiveness. A .45 definitely has more kinetic energy but has to punch a bigger hole in a winter jacket...and the debate goes round and round.

I've used the example of a pool cover before since shooting a clothed person/ballistic gel is different than bare ballistic gel. If you cover a pool with water in it and the cover is sitting on top of the water, you can jump on it and the cover will catch you absorbing the energy of your jump in the water displacement. If you ump on the cover of an empty pool you'll be found on the bottom of the pool. Now the human body is what percent water? And the durability/thickness of clothing would have what effect on piercing the water that is already covered with a heavy coat of skin?

Though you treat every gun like it's the ultimate killing machine, since even with the facts I wouldn't volunteer to be shot to prove the point, a hand gun isn't the deadly weapon we treat it as being. Every situation is different.

Then to add to the mix, I watched a documentary program on Public TV many years ago about handguns being carried for defence. I dont remember all the specifics but ultimately the program showed that if you timidly carry for protection, while you decide if you're going to pull the trigger or not, the BG takes your gun and shoots you. Well you hesitated because your paused to think about hiring a lawyer to defend your actions and consider all the consequences because your not a thug and have something to lose. The thug could care less and acts on his "dominate you" instincts. Then there's another factor; you are an avid shooter and go to the club and are at some degree of practiced and skill v. skills you're the better chance of hitting the target. On the BG's side, he has a gun solely for intimidation purposes and shoots randomly with no experience to speak of and definitely no practice to sharpen skills. The result of that are the chance he hits you at all, the chance he hits something that will harm then chance he hits something that will kill you. Ultimately, statistically the BG has a 5% chance of succeeding and you have more like a 50% chance or better. The more you have these statistics in mind and operational, the better chance you have of winning because you'll take that extra fraction of a second to make the first shot count while the BG pulls the trigger aiming at nothing.

All of this too has a story to defeat every story and isn't debatable to anybodies win but it's all valid information.

dragonfire267

Speaking from personal combat experience (although I'm new to this site), the Beretta mod.92 or M9 is a great weapon as far as field service and quality of manufacture, can't compete, repeat, can't compete with a larger caliber. Personal experience in the episode in Panama (to which I have personal experience), the 9mm requires multiple hits to incapacitate an opponent. Further validated from my son's experience in Iraq with the 3/7 Cav. I have a Kimber Tactical Pro with 4" barrel in .45 a.c.p., quite concealable with plenty of knockdown power. Worn with the appropriate holster, it's unnoticeable. I have a concealed weapons permit, and I'm armed everywhere I go. Personal choice, but, I'd much rather have the bullet mass in a life and death situation.

KainThornn

Kimbers are a little out of reach money wise, any secondary recommendations?

Swamp

A buddy of mine has a Colt 1911 that's a real nice shooter and surprisingly a great trigger pull. Keep an eye out for a used Kimber; though rare they do happen.

KainThornn

Colt's aren't far behind...my current budget is more...Taurus. The local gunshop sells em for about $550+

Swamp

Taurus might not be a bad choice; if it were me, I would talk to a trusted gunsmith or gun shop and tell them your budget and ask them what gun is the best value in that price range. Try and find a gun shop with a gunsmith in it that has been in business for a long time; those are usually the most honest or people you'll get your best information from. Stay away from online auctions as I have heard horror stories about what comes in the box after the sale is final.

Swamp

Another point KainThornn; I just re read your first post and am not sure if it has been addresses but you mention an issue with barrel length. You're right to be concerned; the shorter the barrel/gun, the more that is happening in a short space and failures to increase. Personally I would not go for less than a 4" barrel which in my experience has a flawless feed record for me no matter what ammunition I shoot. My 3" is a little fussy with ammunition but is still very reliable for carry with the right ammunition (note all my guns are Kimbers which gives me an edge).

As far as carrying, I jsut got involved with an IWB holster that is about as concealable as can be, adjustable as can be and comfortable...I carry all day and cant even tell it's there. This holster also will just as comfortably handle anything from a 3 to 5" barrel with no difference in comfort or conceal-ability. It also allows for easy in and out holstering with no binding like all leather ones work.

The holster:

Kholster

Use my rebate code: 03-3381 for a 10% rebate on your first order.

KainThornn

Those prices are groovy! Thanks for the code, no idea when I'll be able to use it, but one day I shall have my CCW perit and something to carry concealed...

Swamp

Oh and accuracy wise; sure the longer the barrel the faster the bullet and there is an accuracy advantage. But for self defense, we're not talking 100 yard shots, we're more like 12' to maybe 50' accuracy isn't that big of an issue. That being said, I shoot my 3" Kimber in competition shoots at 50' with excellent results. My 4" I can, off the bench, put a shot in a 3/4" bull with my laser at 50'. For self defense, a half inch or an inch isn't a big deal.