AllenM

I picked up a commander length slide from a local gun show a couple weeks ago.
It was a new Stainless slide but cheap sitting in a case with a lot of other misc parts. I Figured it was a blem but OK for what I wanted it for. It actually measures out nice.

Once I got it home and test fitted it to a commander frame I discovered the area around the recoil plug is about 1/2" shorter than a normal commander slide.
It appears to be cut to work on a Government frame. It does work on a Government frame.
What is the point in this?
I have no problem putting it on a government frame, it seems to cycle fine, but it's this first time I've seen this.

JohnnyT

First...A half-inch is an awful lot to take off a Commander slide spring tunnel. Are you sure of that?

The tunnel may have been altered to work with a reverse plug system, or simply as a way to regain some of the lost slide travel and runup that comes with mating a Commander slide to a Govt frame because the cobbler didn't want to alter his frame.

If you use it, you'll probably need to include a shortened spring plug if it doesn't already have one.

AllenM

Agreed a half inch is a lot and no it is not setup for a reverse plug. With a barrel in it it seems to function fine on a gov frame.
The slide goes back enough to eject brass. I have a crummy camera pic but photobucket seems to be down

JohnnyT

Post a picture as soon as you can get one. I'm curious about this one. The only thing that makes sense is regaining lost slide travel without altering the frame...likely somebody who wanted to use a Commander slide on a full sized frame without eliminating the ability to use a 5-inch top end...and that would only require about a quarter-inch unless he was trying to equal the travel of the 5-inch gun with a Commander slide. Even at that, a half-inch would seem to be a bit excessive.

Also...Compressing a stock Commander spring an additional half-inch would result in coil bind...a stacking of the coils into a solid cylinder with the slide at full travel...long before full travel is realized, in fact. Bad JuJu. It's the sort of thing that busts bushings and slides in quick-time.

Interesting.

AllenM

I did'nt think about the additional spring compression but, might be able to overcome that some way. If I really want this to work that is.
Well for some reason I cant get in to my account at photobucket and I don't have my cell phone cable with me at work, sooooo. As soon as I can I will post a pic.

AllenM

pretty bad phone pic I know but should be able to get the idea

JohnnyT

Looks like a normal Commander spring tunnel to me. They're shorter than Government Model tunnels in order to make up some of the difference in slide travel and runup. The rear face of he tunnel is the slide's impact abutment. When it hits the guide rod flange, sandwiched between the frame and slide abutments...that's what brings it all to a halt.

The frames are different, too. The impact abutment and the frame rails in the Commander are set back .100 inch further than the Government Model frame...for the same reasons.

The spring plug and barrel bushing are also shorter.

Even with the Commander changes, travel is less than on the 5-inch gun. Installing a Commander slide on the Government Model frame results in even less due to the location of the impact abutment and the rails. It'll work, though erratic ejection usually occurs unless an extended-length ejector is installed on the GM frame...and even then...ejection can be a little erratic because the Commander ejector is slightly offset to the right.

AllenM

It is sitting on top of a commander

JohnnyT

Compare the two slides to see if there's any difference in the tunnels.

AllenM

Here it is on another commander


Here is is on a Government frame

AllenM

There is a lot of difference....almost 1/2"

JohnnyT

I was talking about differences in the slides.

The slide end of the spring tunnel doesn't have to be very far into the frame tunnel. Just enough to cover the spring with a little overlap is all it takes. The stainless slide pictured is a normal Commander slide. The spring tunnel hasn't been altered.

The spring tunnel on a 5-inch slide is longer, as is the spring plug and the bushing.

AllenM

*sigh*
Sorry but you are not correct in this. The rest of the slide is fine. When I install it on a commander frame there is a gap between the spring tunnel and the frame.
On a government model it is just inside the frame

JohnnyT

No. I don't know what you've got there, unless it's an Officer's Model-class slide instead of a Commander slide. That slide will expose the spring on a Commander frame if the tunnel has been cut for a reverse plug or a flanged plug.

The reason that it fits inside the frame tunnel on a Government Model is because the GM's frame tunnel is longer than a Commander's.

If you have a Commander there, it would be a great help in identifying exactly what you've got if you'll take a picture of just the slides...off the frame...for a comparison. The whole slide. Not just the front end.

AllenM

When I get home tonight

JohnnyT

Something just occurred to me.

Is the oddball a Springfield Champion slide? If it is, we've found the bug.

ghitch75

+1 was goin' to say that too.....thats my guess....

AllenM

If it was an obvious answer I would not have asked the question

Champion is on a full frame?

ghitch75

yes it is as it is a 4" commander not 4 1/14".....there's your gap...

JohnnyT

No. The Champion is Springfield's response to Colt's Combat Commander...except the slide and barrel are a quarter-inch shorter.

Since Colt's first excursion with stainless was with the Series 80 pistols, a quick way to determine that it's not a Colt slide is to flip it upside down. Near the disconnect slot, offset to one side...look to see if it's got a spring-loaded plunger or an empty hole where the plunger used to be. If it's there, it's a Series 80 Colt slide. If it's not, it may be a Springfield Champion. If it's .250 inch shorter than the known Commander slide...it's probably a Champion.

Unsure of whether Kimber builds a 4-inch pistol since I don't pay much attention to'em.

Don't much care for the Champion, either. Neither fish nor fowl, and all.

AllenM

Oh and BTW I recognize your nick

AllenM

Kimber Pro models are 4" but this slide is the 41/4" barrel length slide.
It is made by someone like STI it is not colt or springer or anything like that.

ghitch75

yep seen you too around...

ghitch75

maybe some one cut the tunnel off?

AllenM

Could be a blem but I am thinking of building around it maybe with a comp on the end

ghitch75

there you go....post pic's when it's done

JohnnyT

This one's got me scratchin' my head, for sure.

AllenM

All right it is a 1/4 inch short



Non the less the spring tunnel isn't covered when on the frame. I didn't bring my fusion frame to work that it did go on .
I just grabbed a colt and it would not fit that without opening up for the ejector on this one so I could not get a pic of it on the gun. (Figures)

It did however go on a full size colt here is a pic of that for what it is worth.



I m trying to decide on whether to get a basic Government frame and build just a basic 1 off 1911 or I am leaning toward a tactical frame with w rail on the bottom with threaded barrel and a 3/4 - 1" compensator to make something a little unique. I tossed around going 400 Corbon caliber, but I doubt it. never know though.

I went ahead and ordered some 1" Stainless bar stock yesterday to make a compensator just in case

As far as the extra spring compression. I recently sold an original Springfield Linkless 10mm.
Springfield instruction manual for the recoil spring was to take a government spring and cut some coils off to make room for the linkless barrel design. I don't see why that wouldn't work here.

JohnnyT

That makes more sense. 1/4 inch was removed to get the slide travel closer to that in the 5-inch gun, but there's still the issue of coil bind with that much more travel. Covering the spring is easy. Just leave the frame tunnel long enough instead of cutting it to Colt's dimensions.

Now I'll go try to wrap my head around that for a while and see what I can come up with. About the only way I can see is to set the frame rails and impact abutment in the frame back by a like amount...but that would seem to be a bit excessive.

Interesting. WTF is STI tryin' to do?

pistolwrench

Gov't model slide shortened to Comm length.

JohnnyT

Maybe...but why cut the spring tunnel that short? Don't make no sense atall other than to make up some lost travel on a GM frame. That's kinda goin' at it from the wrong end.

Or...Maybe that was the whole point. To make for an easy conversion on a GM frame.

pistolwrench

Tuner,

I took pics.







Shortened government slide.

AllenM

That pretty much looks like what I have, except I think it was born that way.
What is the advantage though?

pistolwrench

No advantage.
And you will need to use a custom, shortened spring.

JohnnyT

Not doubtin' your word, Chuck...but it does seem like a backasswards way to go at a Commander slide on a GM frame. I can't see the point in it. Seems that the simplest way would be to cut the frame...unless the objective is to allow a quick-change between slides. Then it makes sense, even though it's unnecessary. I've put several Commander slides on old USGI frames after the original slides cracked...and they work fine. Sorting out the ejection was a little persnickety, but completely doable.

Yep. I guess that's the way of things. Make'em more complicated than they need to be...for some reason. Just can't wrap my head around what it would be, though.

Anyway...The upright pistol is my 1918 "Black Army" Commander. Had the frame and no slide. Picked up a Series 80 Commander top end at a show pretty cheap. It's a good shooter. Ugly as a mud fence, but ugly is as ugly does, no?

And, in case you're wonderin'...Yes. There's a 16-pound Wolff GM spring cut to 24.5 coils in the gun. That works fine, too.

Nothin' but love, buddy. Nothin' but love.

ghitch75

did you have to cut any thing on the frame to make it work?.... answered mine own question.....stuck me Commander slide on my 1943 frame.....i can make it work.....

pistolwrench

A 5" slide was shortened to 4.25".
No additional work save perhaps a new bushing lug cut.
The spring tunnel is located differently from a gov't to a comm.

JohnnyT

I'm not getting the "why" part.

Why cut a 5-inch slide down when new 4.25-inch slides are available?

Why do it in such a way as to require a proprietary spring when off-the-shelf springs will work with a straight-up swap? By the time somebody pays you to cut a slide down and finish it, he could buy a spankin' new Commander-spec slide from Caspian and probably pay for the rest of the work.

It's a little like me and Joe with .308 rifles. We book a huntin' trip where the ranges are going to be a little long and we need another 100 or so fps to flatten the trajectory and provide a little more punch way out there.

Joe sends his rifle to a smith to have it rechambered for .308 Ackley Improved...buys special dies so he can make his ammunition...and starts fire-forming his brass.

I go trade my .308 rifle for a .30-06. Standard dies work and I can buy ammunition just about anywhere.

There are 10,000 US military vehicles in Germany that need paint. Simpler to bring the vehicles to the US...or take the paint to Germany?

What I don't get is...What's the point in doing something the hard way when there's a perfectly viable, cheaper, and more simple alternative?

Seems like an awful lot of fuss to go to in order to solve a problem when the answer has been there all along.

Nope. I had to install an extended ejector and fiddle with the shape in order to get the ejection squared away. I regained a little lost slide travel by thinning the guide rod flange to .060 inch and it's been doin' the deed ever since. If memory serves me, that was in '88 or '89 and I shot the purple people eater piss out of it until about 2 years ago. The whole project took all of about four hours if you don't count the trip to and from the gun show.

The pistol runs like a Singer sewin' machine...feeds everything I've thrown at it...shoots where it looks...and it shoots tight enough to clean the plate rack at 25 yards if I give it even a little effort.

Alabaster

I like the Black Army Commander, JohnnyT!! Sorry for the threadjack..

I was thinking it almost had to be cut down, but it was hard to try and see it from the pics. The back looked cut, but I couldn't see the front well, only the spring tunnel which almost assuredly looked shortened to me. I thought it had to be a shortened govt or champion too, because I don't know of anyone who makes that length with a std ejection port other than those two. ????

Was this just a fact-finding mission? If it woks on a govt frame and you have one and don't mind using it, what's the discussion for? Not that I'm knocking it, I just am curious what the beef is with using the govt frame, I guess.

JohnnyT

There isn't one. If there's a desire to slap a Commander slide on a GM frame, and you want the full slide travel of a real Commander...the simplest approach is to cut the rails and the impact abutment back a 10th of an inch and use a real Commander slide instead of going all the way around your elbow to get to your thumb.

*shrug*

Move the trucks...or move the paint?