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Old 02-02-2002, 02:31 PM   #1
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gentlemen, Is there any truth that carbon steel is tougher than stainless. I was told that a carbon frame and slide could be tightened more than a stainless one.
 
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Old 02-02-2002, 09:36 PM   #2
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For whatever my $.02 is worth: I am not going to start this response by opening a debate on the subject of how great Les Baer guns are. I own a baer and I know their strengths and weaknesses both. However, I know that Les Baer himself and his company all know what makes a gun accurate: they build and sell 1.5 inch 50 yard guns and guarantee them, are the only company that I know of guaranteeing the accuracy, and guess what: They build 1.5 inch 50 yard accuracy guaranteed guns on: guess what again: carbon steel with blued finish only. No stainless steel, no hard chrome finished guns, and no polymer finished guns. Considering that he's in business to make money, and they can't do that without a reasonable degree of customer satisfaction, I'm betting that he knows something we don't, and if I had a gunsmith tell me that he could build a 1.5 inch 50 yard gun out of stainless steel or hard chromed finish, I'd want his guarantee and signature in blood, and then I would still worry. And, oh, by the way, I am refering to automatics only here, not revolvers. Stainless steel can not be fitted as tight as carbon steel without galling, even with dis-similiar type stainless steels. Also, I believe Layne Simpson's book on "THE CUSTOM GOVERNMENT MODEL PISTOL" might shed some light on this suject. Exceptional book of knowledge on custom government models. In a toss-up, considering Baer's in business to make money, I think I'll stick with carbon and blue, even though I like hard chrome. Sorry for the rambling.
 
Old 02-03-2002, 08:14 AM   #3
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I own a factory Hard Chromed Les Baer and I know they make stainless and Baer Coat guns with the guarantee.

shane
 
Old 02-03-2002, 11:55 AM   #4
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Mr. Shane 1: The last catalog I have of Les Baer Custom is several years old, and not in my possession now, (I think that we need some insight from Mike Reilly here), However, I believe that it listed 1.5 inch 50 yard accuracy guaranteed guns to be built and / or supplied in blued carbon steel only, and at an additional cost of $ 300.00, I believe. I talked to Mr. Baer and someone else on his staff about a year and a half ago, and both stated that they could not guarantee the accuracy of stainless steel or any plating or processing other than bluing to meet the 1.5 inch 50 yard accuracy guarantee even though it was built to be an 1.5 inch gun. To my knowledge, all of Les Baer Customs handguns are built to a maximum of 3.0 inch 50 yard accuracy guarantees, excepting a couple that are guaranteed to a max of 2.5 inch 50 yard . At one time, LBC offered this 1.5 inch guarantee for the paltry sum $100.00. Rock River Arms offered this 1.5 inch 50 yard guarantee for free on all of their handguns ordered, and maybe they still do. I am sure that I am going out on a limb here, but Is it possible that you could have mistaken the 3.0 inch 50 yard guarantee Minimumly offered on all of their handguns, for that of the generally special ordered and costed accordingly, 1.5 inch 50 yard guarantee? All LBC 1.5 inch guns come with proof targets, signed and dated. Doers yours have such a target? Just curious.
 
Old 02-03-2002, 12:42 PM   #5
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Wells, Also have a Baer 1.5 P2. When I ordered it the info was about the same as you post. Via a phone conversation stated they would not build it in SS if I wanted the 1.5" guarantee. Have the test tgt. but it's only referenced to the guns serial #, FWIW.
 
Old 02-03-2002, 01:28 PM   #6
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So stainless steel makes guns less accurate? :roll:

1.5' @ 50 yards accuracy is a no brainer, and you don't need insanely tight slide-to-frame fit to get it. Les Baer is kind of selling a gimmick IMHO. My stupid stainless Delta Elite has that kind of accuracy courtesy of a "drop-in" Bar-Sto barrel and stock Colt slide-to-frame fit. :razz:
 
Old 02-03-2002, 01:30 PM   #7
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Thanks for the info, just trying to get an idea on my next purchase.
 
Old 02-03-2002, 02:03 PM   #8
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Pistolero: How are you, thanks for the input. I didn't remember what exactly was on the test targets, Only that they had some type of validation on them including serialization. I think that we need some input from a combination of gunsmith, machinist, and metalurgist. I don't think that the word tough says it all. I believe that stainless steel and cres, (corrosion resistant steel), which some people refer to as stainless, is subject to galling when fitted as tight as carbon steel, everything else being equal. I also have been led to believe that it is harder to machine, and wears down cutting tools faster. I think galling is the problem here, not the degree of toughness. I am thinking that Cliffe no 369 might want to converse with Les Baer Custom, who has a web site and an e-mail address. Where are all of those combination gunsmith, machinist, and / or metalurgists out there. Just a thought. Springfield Armory Customshop might have some valuable input here, but I don't think that they will put their maximum group size in writing. accuracy is pretty final, huh? wells
 
Old 02-03-2002, 04:45 PM   #9
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Wells, I guess I am wrong about the Baers. Mine do not have the targets. My Wilson Stainless Protector will shoot tighter groups than both of my Baers and it shoots to the point of aim.
 
Old 02-03-2002, 06:49 PM   #10
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Shane 1: My response was somewhat overbearing and I do apologize, not only to you but to the other members also. Sometimes the good intentions go down one road, and the train of thought goes down the other. CastleBravo: my apologies to you, too. Looks like we hit a nerve here. I do not believe Baer builds the greatest guns in the world, and I have had several of them. I actually feel that although they are somewhat pricey, they are the best in their catagory, generally speaking. There is not a lot of competion in that price range. I personally believe that their quality has slipped over the last ten year period. I had one of their very early Premier II guns with the coated barrel, and the quality was superior to what I see recently. I don't feel that stainless steel produces either inferior or inaccurate guns, only that is is harder to work with, and harder to fit, and therefore: statistically reducing the probability of obtaining an 1.5" 50 yd. gun. Also, regarding your Delta: I think that yours is the exception rather than the rule: A drop in barrel in a factory toleranced and assembled slide-frame fit doing 1.5" 50yd group ( one or two shot group ?) just kidding, is to be held in high esteem. It is interesting to note, however, that some 'smiths charge more for cosmetically enhancing ( especially checkering ) stainless over carbon. Also, I don't think that Baer has a gimmick going on the no 1.5" 50 yd. stainless or hard chrome, I just think that he knows where his money is at. All the above is only my own opinion, though, and I do enjoy the opportunity to converse with other shooters and / or gun hobbyists.
 
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