1911 cone barrel

Sean Smith · 02-13-2002, 06:31 PM

Here is something I have wondered about for a while: what good does a bull or cone-type barrel do? How are they functionally better/worse/different than a traditional setup? Do they serve a useful purpose or are they a gimmick?

So what is the point of these things? :grin:

Rob Longenecker · 02-13-2002, 08:09 PM

Bull barrels add weight up front, delay unlocking of the slide and barrel which spreads out the recoil impulse over a little more time. People feel they shoot slightly softer with less recoil and muzzle flip.

There is also no bushing to break.

What did I miss? :smile:

Sean Smith · 02-13-2002, 08:46 PM

If they are so great then why doesn't everybody use them in their custom guns?

Number 6 · 02-13-2002, 09:46 PM

Cone barrels provide a much greater bearing area and self-center with zero play for superior lock-up and accuracy. They are also the best way to go for a ported barrel, as the gases do not contaminate the contact area for the slide and barrel.

Check out a Schuemann catalogue/website or Strayer Voigt, which uses Schuemann barrels exclusively, for examples of ported and unported cone barrels.

Commander Fan · 02-14-2002, 12:27 AM

As noted above, you are elimintating 2 points of potential 'gap' in the 1911.

First is the barrel/bushing contact area. Second is the bushing/slide contact area.

On the bull settup I have on my Pro Eclipse, the slide is solidly pushed against the cone of the barrel. This helps maintain consistant lockup.

The other point that was brought up is bushing failure. This could be breakage or bushing pinch.

It has always been said that Government models are historicly more reliable than Commander models. This is usually traced back to the steeper angle of barrel incline while in rear batery. This can result in the bushing pinching the barrel. The cone/bull system eliminates this problem.

The downside is that a full-length guide rod MUST be used. Some are opposed to FLGRs. I don't dislike them, but prefer the standard system better.

When I eventually build my 'perfect' defensive gun, it will incorperate a bull-style barrel. Both for the reliability and accuracy benefits I see in the system.

I will also look for a solid-end reverse-plug so I can use the standard recoil spring setup. The only problem I forsee is fieldstrip reassembly. The spring will need to be installed before the slide and frame are assembled. It might be a fumbly process, but we'll have to see.

Hope this helped.

Birch · 02-14-2002, 08:33 AM

CB.....errr... Sean, I was thinking the same thing. They are ALL OVER THE PLACE for the IPSC guns, and with the thought of one less part to break and the potential for even quicker follow up shots, I've been wondering why they are not used more.

Now I'm only on my first cup of coffee this morning, but I think I remember someone (Larry Vickers?) giving the cons of a bull barrel in a combat pistol. Or maybe I just need more coffee :grin:

Matt VDW · 02-14-2002, 08:37 AM

How much weight do a bull barrel and FLGR add to a 5" pistol compared to a conventional barrel with bushing and GI-style spring guide and plug?

How long does it take for the forward barrel-to-slide fit to loosen and what do you do when it does? (Obviously, you can't just fit a new bushing.)

Terry Peters · 02-14-2002, 09:05 AM

Does anyone know if the bull barrels in 5 inch are in the proposal stage to be approved for IDPA. I know the 4 inch guns with the bull barrels are approved.

I have several folks who like them in their guns both four and five inch barrel length.

SonetFormatter · 02-14-2002, 04:18 PM

Full length guide rods MUST be used with bull/cone barrels? I'm new to shooting, but my CQB compact has the short guide rod with a reverse plug. I might have my terminology mixed up.

Commander Fan · 02-14-2002, 05:26 PM

I hope your not kidding Sonet.

I have been looking for a solid-end, Commander-sized, reverse-plug for 5 months. I would be using it on my Pro Eclpse. It has the same slide length as your CQB.

How long is the spring-guide stub on the other end of the spring?

How is it disassembled?

This was the system I was talking about at the end of my last post. If Wilson has the parts it'd be great.

gyp_c2 · 02-14-2002, 05:55 PM

...Well of course the "internet guy" makes one with a Bull called, "The Grey Ghost"...I'm not positive, but I'd bet he's not havin' many returned...

Sean Smith · 02-15-2002, 08:53 PM

The Grey Ghost is actually a tapered cone barrel, not a bull barrel. As a practical matter is there any difference between the two? And do you have to make irreversible modifications to the gun to accomodate the bull/cone barrel?

What I'm trying to get at, and what I really don't have a good sense for, is exactly how MUCH benefit there is going to a bull/cone barrel? In theory it seems like it would be ideal for my Delta Elite to have a beefy bull barrel for all the reasons listed above. But would I be able to actually tell the difference?

Randall_1611 · 02-15-2002, 09:07 PM

Sean, you do have a bull barrel in that 10mm, just like my Delta and the 9x23 barrel for my Glock is a bull barrel :smile: The bore is smaller than a .45!

1911Freak · 02-15-2002, 10:16 PM

My wife has a Kimber Pro CDP, which uses a bull barrel, that she loves. Take down is a pain in the ass but it really does do a good job with recoil recovery.

Robert

Sean Smith · 02-16-2002, 10:29 AM

I guess the professional pistolsmith types are too buys hollering at each other in virtual reality to provide some input... :razz:

1911Freak · 02-16-2002, 02:56 PM

Hope fully one of them is busy knocking out some backlog :wink:. That way I can send "The Sword" back to get re-coated.

Robert

John B · 02-17-2002, 01:30 PM

You know, now that you mention it, the pro's do seem to have gone a bit quiet.

Has golf season started for those in friendlier climates than the frozen tundra where I live?

Quote:

On 2002-02-16 11:29, Sean Smith wrote:
I guess the professional pistolsmith types are too buys hollering at each other in virtual reality to provide some input... :razz:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: John B on 2002-02-17 14:31 ]</font>

Ned Christiansen · 02-17-2002, 03:07 PM

I think the advantage of a bull barrel is more theoretical than anything, but... why not? I have one on one of my guns, and truth be told, I don't recall ever doing a side-by-side. I do use it in IPSC, and for pins... but I would not feel disadvantaged if I had to switch it back to a standard bushed barrel.

gyp_c2 · 02-17-2002, 04:17 PM

I like them...I like the bushing/barrel set-up as well...I think the Bull set-up in a shorter gun is better and I still can't see any good reason not to try them in a 5" either...I KNOW I'd love to try a "Grey Ghost" set-up just because of the idea behind them.
Can anyone say whether it's difficult to change back to a standard barrel from a Bull set-up and what all, exactly, would be entailed?

TIA...

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02-13-2002, 06:31 PM	#1
Sean Smith Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 1,580	Here is something I have wondered about for a while: what good does a bull or cone-type barrel do? How are they functionally better/worse/different than a traditional setup? Do they serve a useful purpose or are they a gimmick? So what is the point of these things? :grin:

02-13-2002, 08:09 PM	#2
Rob Longenecker Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 720	Bull barrels add weight up front, delay unlocking of the slide and barrel which spreads out the recoil impulse over a little more time. People feel they shoot slightly softer with less recoil and muzzle flip. There is also no bushing to break. What did I miss? :smile:

02-13-2002, 08:46 PM	#3
Sean Smith Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 1,580	If they are so great then why doesn't everybody use them in their custom guns?

02-13-2002, 09:46 PM	#4
Number 6 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 520	Cone barrels provide a much greater bearing area and self-center with zero play for superior lock-up and accuracy. They are also the best way to go for a ported barrel, as the gases do not contaminate the contact area for the slide and barrel. Check out a Schuemann catalogue/website or Strayer Voigt, which uses Schuemann barrels exclusively, for examples of ported and unported cone barrels.

02-14-2002, 12:27 AM	#5
Commander Fan Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 21	As noted above, you are elimintating 2 points of potential 'gap' in the 1911. First is the barrel/bushing contact area. Second is the bushing/slide contact area. On the bull settup I have on my Pro Eclipse, the slide is solidly pushed against the cone of the barrel. This helps maintain consistant lockup. The other point that was brought up is bushing failure. This could be breakage or bushing pinch. It has always been said that Government models are historicly more reliable than Commander models. This is usually traced back to the steeper angle of barrel incline while in rear batery. This can result in the bushing pinching the barrel. The cone/bull system eliminates this problem. The downside is that a full-length guide rod MUST be used. Some are opposed to FLGRs. I don't dislike them, but prefer the standard system better. When I eventually build my 'perfect' defensive gun, it will incorperate a bull-style barrel. Both for the reliability and accuracy benefits I see in the system. I will also look for a solid-end reverse-plug so I can use the standard recoil spring setup. The only problem I forsee is fieldstrip reassembly. The spring will need to be installed before the slide and frame are assembled. It might be a fumbly process, but we'll have to see. Hope this helped.

02-14-2002, 08:33 AM	#6
Birch Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 87	CB.....errr... Sean, I was thinking the same thing. They are ALL OVER THE PLACE for the IPSC guns, and with the thought of one less part to break and the potential for even quicker follow up shots, I've been wondering why they are not used more. Now I'm only on my first cup of coffee this morning, but I think I remember someone (Larry Vickers?) giving the cons of a bull barrel in a combat pistol. Or maybe I just need more coffee :grin:

02-14-2002, 08:37 AM	#7
Matt VDW Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ohio Posts: 285	How much weight do a bull barrel and FLGR add to a 5" pistol compared to a conventional barrel with bushing and GI-style spring guide and plug? How long does it take for the forward barrel-to-slide fit to loosen and what do you do when it does? (Obviously, you can't just fit a new bushing.)

02-14-2002, 09:05 AM	#8
Terry Peters Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Combine, Texas Posts: 284	Does anyone know if the bull barrels in 5 inch are in the proposal stage to be approved for IDPA. I know the 4 inch guns with the bull barrels are approved. I have several folks who like them in their guns both four and five inch barrel length.

02-14-2002, 04:18 PM	#9
SonetFormatter Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 40	Full length guide rods MUST be used with bull/cone barrels? I'm new to shooting, but my CQB compact has the short guide rod with a reverse plug. I might have my terminology mixed up.

02-14-2002, 05:26 PM	#10
Commander Fan Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 21	I hope your not kidding Sonet. I have been looking for a solid-end, Commander-sized, reverse-plug for 5 months. I would be using it on my Pro Eclpse. It has the same slide length as your CQB. How long is the spring-guide stub on the other end of the spring? How is it disassembled? This was the system I was talking about at the end of my last post. If Wilson has the parts it'd be great.

02-14-2002, 05:55 PM	#11
gyp_c2 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Colorado or Louisiana or... Posts: 1,420	...Well of course the "internet guy" makes one with a Bull called, "The Grey Ghost"...I'm not positive, but I'd bet he's not havin' many returned...

02-15-2002, 08:53 PM	#12
Sean Smith Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 1,580	The Grey Ghost is actually a tapered cone barrel, not a bull barrel. As a practical matter is there any difference between the two? And do you have to make irreversible modifications to the gun to accomodate the bull/cone barrel? What I'm trying to get at, and what I really don't have a good sense for, is exactly how MUCH benefit there is going to a bull/cone barrel? In theory it seems like it would be ideal for my Delta Elite to have a beefy bull barrel for all the reasons listed above. But would I be able to actually tell the difference?

02-15-2002, 09:07 PM	#13
Randall_1611 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WY Posts: 579	Sean, you do have a bull barrel in that 10mm, just like my Delta and the 9x23 barrel for my Glock is a bull barrel :smile: The bore is smaller than a .45!

02-15-2002, 10:16 PM	#14
1911Freak Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Cincinati Posts: 133	My wife has a Kimber Pro CDP, which uses a bull barrel, that she loves. Take down is a pain in the ass but it really does do a good job with recoil recovery. Robert

02-16-2002, 10:29 AM	#15
Sean Smith Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 1,580	I guess the professional pistolsmith types are too buys hollering at each other in virtual reality to provide some input... :razz:

02-16-2002, 02:56 PM	#16
1911Freak Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Cincinati Posts: 133	Hope fully one of them is busy knocking out some backlog :wink:. That way I can send "The Sword" back to get re-coated. Robert

02-17-2002, 03:07 PM	#18
Ned Christiansen Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 687	I think the advantage of a bull barrel is more theoretical than anything, but... why not? I have one on one of my guns, and truth be told, I don't recall ever doing a side-by-side. I do use it in IPSC, and for pins... but I would not feel disadvantaged if I had to switch it back to a standard bushed barrel.

02-17-2002, 04:17 PM	#19
gyp_c2 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Colorado or Louisiana or... Posts: 1,420	I like them...I like the bushing/barrel set-up as well...I think the Bull set-up in a shorter gun is better and I still can't see any good reason not to try them in a 5" either...I KNOW I'd love to try a "Grey Ghost" set-up just because of the idea behind them. Can anyone say whether it's difficult to change back to a standard barrel from a Bull set-up and what all, exactly, would be entailed? TIA...