What does one look for in a good custom / semi-custom gun?

Brodog · 02-15-2002, 07:39 PM

Reading a lot of these past posts, rants, and flames I've repeatedly seen people talk about this extractor, that extractor, how this part should be used because its a better part, or this checkering versus whatever.

Now as I get ready to seriously look at purchasing a gun over $1000 (I know, not a TRUE custom gun) I wonder how I can understand the differences in some of these parts or the way they are matched together.

I have gone to various manufacturer or gunsmiths web sites (Kimber, Wilson, SA, Colt, Ed Brown, and Dane Burns), I have read the various marketing hype and checked the posts here and in 1911forum.com. These sites have really helped me make some of the tough decisions.

What I can't seem to see are those little imperfections that when I pick up the gun, I say to myself (well such and such is not seated right, I'll have to get that feed ramp polished, and so on...). Is there a web site out there or other good pictures that point out these things?

I plan on running any gun through feeding/ejecting shells and such before I plunk my money down, but short of "renting" the time of a good smith to assist in shopping what's a guy to do to avoid the odd (Kimber, Wilson, SA, etc) that snuck out of the shop with serious problems?

I am new to 1911 handguns and would really hate to pay that much money for something that I'll have to try to offload because six months down the road I find out what an over-rated/problematic piece of craftsmanship I've purchased.

Any ideas or sites would be welcome.

Thanks,

Brodie

[ This Message was edited by: Brodog on 2002-02-15 20:42 ]

glazer1972 · 02-15-2002, 07:50 PM

Maybe you could find someone a little more experienced in your area to go with you to a show. I am not the most knowing on 1911 but I can point out differences in the guns on the table. the complete book of 1911's magazine shows some of the things to look for. good luck!

Randall_1611 · 02-15-2002, 08:03 PM

You have a good start. Read or search the threads in the "home workshop forum". Hopefully most of the pictures will still be up, look at detailed pictures in the "gun rags", look at as many as you can.

You can feel a rough feed ramp, you can tell if the firing pin stop is loose and alows the ejector to move (rotate), you can see if the grips are flush with the frame, et.

One set of factors for reliability and one set of factors for cosmetics. Where the two match is how they "feel" to you and fit your hand. For example, my K C-II, fits my hand and points (ballances) better (for me) after I installed a new grip safety and got out the file to blend it and the frame together.

02-15-2002, 08:27 PM

Wow! This is refreshing. Somebody wants info, and doesn't want to crucify anyone. Certainly got my attention, as I was getting quite bored with the recent traffic on the forum. I guess the first step, since you're new to 1911's, is to do what you've been doing - learn a little. It's a little overwhelming when you shift focus from stock factory guns to high end customs. It's only natural to think how much do I get for ???$, How much for ????$. I'd advise you to keep it simple, especially the first time out of the blocks. The beauty of the 1911 system is that you can improve the gun incrementally, at your own chosen pace.You can spend as much or as little as you feel you need to. If you start with a basic gun, and begin to learn to shoot, you'll discover which custom modifications make sense for you, and which may not. Will you make mistakes? Count on it. There will be more 1911's, I promise you. Learning is fun - expensive at times, but fun nonetheless. Use this forum, ask questions, look at the photos posted, and have fun. We're here for you. Good luck!

Sean Smith · 02-15-2002, 08:31 PM

This may sound like a goofy suggestion, but here goes: handle a bunch of different ones and see what you like best. Don't worry so much about which one "should" be the best, because you are the one who has to live with it, not a bunch of yahoos on an internet forum. If you think a Colt feels better than a Wilson Combat, get the Colt, shoot it a while, then decide if you want anything changed. If you like Wilson Combat, Les Baer or Ed Brown best and you can afford them, then go for it. The odds of any of them being genuinely defective are pretty small.

Why do I say that? Well, alot of your satisfaction is going to be subjective, not objective. You have to live with the gun, not anyone on this forum, and odds are that as long as it isn't a Charles Daly or something and doesn't have defects that a layperson can pick up on, you are going to get a good product. So don't sweat the little stuff.

If you decide to have somebody work on your gun, ask what the pistolsmiths's CUSTOMERS think of them; all other opinions are utterly irrelevant and should just be considered background noise. Personally, unless they admit to using pig iron and bailing wire to put their guns together, you don't have to sweat the details of what a reputable 'smith is going to put into the sucker... and if they aren't reputable then who knows what you are getting anyway.

Sean Smith · 02-15-2002, 08:37 PM

Oh yeah, what Ted said. :grin:

Seriously, he is on the money. It will probably take a while for you to decide what you REALLY want anyway, and as long as you don't get something really horrible or have some truly stupid work done on your gun it isn't a big deal. Heck, even really stupid work can be fixed pretty easily by a good 'smith. The BCP-tweaked Delta Elite that I'm always showing off and shooting the crap out of started as a BROKEN gun that I sent to Dane with a short to-do list. Now it is exactly what I want and works, well, perfectly. You have to try pretty hard to permenantly damage a 1911.

Brodog · 02-16-2002, 12:48 AM

Thanks to all of you for your knowledgable input. I'm heading to a gun show here in California tomorrow with the intention of placing my hands on as many different 1911's as possible. I just wanted to get an idea for the things that I should look out for since not all of them will be of the high-end production/semi-custom. My intention is trying to notice the problems before I purchase next month.

As I'm sure you have all experienced, this will be part pleasure, and part TORTURE (not buying the first nice one I see). Sometimes the pain is worth the end product though.:wink: I certainly hope it will be. I'll probably have to shoot a couple rounds of skeet on Sunday to balance the torture.

If anyone else has other points on the weapon to check, please let me know.

Thanks again,

Brodie

[ This Message was edited by: Brodog on 2002-02-16 01:50 ]

JiminCA · 02-16-2002, 01:11 AM

If you're in southern CA go to the IDPA match next weekend at the ISI range. There will be about 70 shooters, and at least half will have 1911's.

Many will let you shoot theirs. I'll let you shoot mine if you like. You can learn a lot in a short time with a little jawboning and trigger time.

PM me if you are interested.

[ This Message was edited by: JiminCA on 2002-02-16 02:12 ]

Sean Smith · 02-16-2002, 08:29 AM

OK, some obvious stuff to check.

Before you buy the gun you are actually going to take home, ask to function check the safties on the gun you are about to pay for. If the guy selling the gun doesn't let you do this, put the gun back in the box and leave immediately.

This lets you do two thing: (a) make sure the safties work, and (b) evaluate the quality of the trigger. NOTE: don't test a firing pin block (if present) by dropping the gun nose-down on the concrete. :grin:

Most functional defects aren't going to be picked up on by a lay shooter anyway, but you can look for obvious stuff like making sure all the parts are actually there. If you have a new snap cap (and they let you use it) you can chamber it to verify that the firing pin actually puts a mark in something, that the extractor can extract something and the ejector can eject something. Of course, it isn't a real bullet, but if you the firing pin does NOTHING, or the snap cap doesn't even get pulled out of the chamber you should probably go for a stroll.

gyp_c2 · 02-17-2002, 05:47 PM

Try 'em all...Handle every dang one you can find. Note the things you like and don't like. Ask questions about everything. It's your money, it's your hide and it's gonna' be your gun!
No matter what anyone says, take it and use it to apply to the one YOU like the best. If you can find any that FEEL GOOD, you are already close...then you can pepper everyone with questions and get a little further along. If you already have a good idea about what you like, start there. If not, take your time and have fun with it. You will never get to buy the FIRST ONE again!
Good luck and let us know what you come up with!

pvanosta · 02-17-2002, 10:10 PM

Brodog,
By now you've been to the gun show and, like me, you saw there was nothing there worth seeing, except for a couple of decently priced .44 MAG revolvers and the stand of Terry Tussey. I picked up and closely inspected every gun on the table. I was already well impressed. Then he pulled a 'Best Gun' out of a bag and handed it to me. It was a whole new experience. Perfect fit and finish, gorgeous Caspian Damascus steel slide and hammer, and a slide that cycled like steel on ice.
As soon as I put the gun down, I knew I had to have one just like it.
The way to go: buy a recent, basic 1911 COLT (no Kimber, no Springfield, just COLT) and ship it to him with $2500 and he'll build the gun of your dreams in 1 year.
Up until now, I too was in the market for a $1100 or so Springfield TRP or something like that. Now, I'm spoiled because of that Tussey. I'll be buying my basic Colt in a month or so. There is no way I can live with a Wilson or Ed Brown after that, as good as they are. I might still buy my TRP to tide me over, while I wait for my full-house custom to be delivered. Then I'll sell the TRP...

JiminCA: I'm a colleague and friend of Brodog. I'm interested in checking out this IDPA in SoCA. I'll PM you as well.

Cowboybobb693 · 02-19-2002, 04:11 PM

Why would you want to part with that amount of money and have your weapon in someone else's hands for a year when you can buy a Kimber , Wilson etc.. right off of the shelf ??? and unless you are a better shot than 99% of us you will never need that type of performance( tight groups) if you want to carry concealed, Oh I forgot, you live in the state that us gave Diane Fineberg, you remember her don't you, she is your anti-gun senator.

Sean Smith · 02-19-2002, 04:35 PM

I wouldn't make the plunge and drop 3 large on a gun when you aren't that certain of what you want in the first place. I don't know if the gratuitous "California Sucks!" comment is really necessary, though.

Number 6 · 02-19-2002, 05:58 PM

Is the budget now "three large?"

If so, either:

1. Save 1/3 of that, or

2. Get one heck of an all-out race gun, if that is your game.

Either way, go to http://www.sviguns.com and click on GunBuilder (after viewing and drooling over the slide show). The object of this exercise is to give you, in a very quick fashion, an overview of just what can be built specifically for you, down to a level of specificity you may well find overwhelming (I did).

It will be educational, and give you an excellent idea of what to look for when you DO build your gun.

Dane Burns · 02-19-2002, 08:09 PM

So I guess Ted and I work cheap :grin:

First time shopper? $1000. is too much IMO. Better of for you and me ow and you down the road to go buy a inexpensive gun, Kimber Classic or a Springfield loaded IMO.

Shoot it for a year or two, get what you NEED changed and learn what you MIGHT want changed of the next few years. Shoot all your new 1911 buddy's guns :grin: By that time you'll either know what you really want or be happy with the original I suspect.

There is no reason in the world to make your first 1911 cost more than $600/$700 even if $4K is just chump change to you.

abnranger · 02-19-2002, 08:40 PM

This is one thing that I must agree with others on. Go out and shoot all the handgusn you can, and from various 'smiths and makers. What felt/looked lihe the firearm of your dreams/nightmare at a show could just a show.

Hell you may find that a Glock with Heinie sights is the ideal handgun. Or you may find that a Kimber with Novaks and a S&A magwell will suit your needs. It is very easy to get sucked into the price makes better--all around, not just cosmetically.

If you insist someone will take that 3K off your hands and make the pistol of your dreams. If you have the chance try 'em out at the range, in the long run it could save you big bucks.

From experience I have had a few of those "be all to end all" pistols; it is certain others here will vouch for that. You take a bath selling it and its accessories, to finance what your shooting buds say is the ultimate handgun. Ask yourself, what are you going to use it for, what items are needed(ambis, night sights, front cocking serrations, serrated back of slide, etc. or are they cosmetic wants), what caliber do you favor, ammo availability and reloadability--I know, things like 357 sig or 9X21/23/25 can be hard to find. Then if there is nothing available from a manufacturer get a pistol plumber into your firearm.

Sean Smith · 02-19-2002, 08:49 PM

Ha ha... so much for these pistolsmiths being out to soak people for everything they're worth. :razz:

Anyway, sinking big bucks on a gun is fine if you know what you really want, but personally I didn't have a really good idea what I wanted in a 1911 until about a year and a half after I started looking into it. Other people can give you good advice on objective stuff like the quality of part maker X or Y, but alot of what will make you happy or unhappy with a pistol may be subjective, personal and downright eccentric. At least, I know I'm eccentric about what I like. :grin:

pvanosta · 02-19-2002, 08:54 PM

Dane, Number6 et al...
No disrespect Gentlemen, but neither Brodog nor I are novice shooters. This is just our first 1911 purchase and we both want to get "it" right first time, even if we have different budgets to play with.
I have been shooting handguns on and off for the past 15 years. Growing up in Europe, the tendency was toward more modern guns (my favorite so far: the Sig P220 in .45 acp, which I still own).
Over time, I have also owned (and used extensively) the S&W 29, a Desert Eagle .44 MAG, a Dan Wesson .357 MAG and a Coonan Arms .357 MAG.
Today, I still have the SIG, the Dan Wesson and the Coonan.
Strange as it may seem here, the Colt 1911 is regarded as somewhat of an antique in Europe, when compared to the SIGs and the HK's.
PLEASE: I don't mean to start a flaming war here. I'm only describing a perception in the rest of the world.
Personally: I love the feel of the 1911. It suits my hand and my shooting style.
So: bearing in mind that
1. I am a decent shot
and
2. I have other guns already and I'm not a millionaire
I want to buy 1 1911, as close to the best as I can afford, to last me 'a lifetime'.
That's why I am drawn to the Tussey kind of gun, even after manipulating the Springfield TRP's of this world...

Randall_1611 · 02-19-2002, 09:42 PM

If you can find the right 1911 with the first purchase :smile: you're doing very well.

I read the gun rags and ended up with my Randall which I still have and last year lucked into a rare .38 Super and a very nice Delta 10mm, both Colts' and both have ran 100% so far. In late October I lose my shirt (well, not really) in a trade for a new Kimber Compact II. 45 and wanted to "fix it up ... for me" It worked very well too.

Right now its in about four places in the house as I work on it. Changing things to what I want ... after shooting friends guns, looking at and handling 1911 at the shows, in stores, et. I did not know what I wanted and as things progress, ideas change. I tried Heines on a glock, they might end up on the Kimber later on. I have others to shoot while "filing on the Kimber".

This works for me! The two colts are still my favorites. Over 90% of the shooters that I know have more than one 1911 and one Glock ... like rabbits ... LOL Mike

fortyfiveshooter · 02-19-2002, 09:57 PM

I started out with a SA loaded, traded for a Kimber, traded for a Para limited, traded for a Kimber Gold Match, traded for a Colt Gold Cup sold to have a Nowlin built.
Eventually you will want a semi-custom, or custom 1911....that is why there are so many smith who specialize in them, you want to make it personal to you, give it soul and make it a real shooter whether you shoot it or not. If you found that first time out then more power to you, some of us are still looking!!!
Go for it

Brodog · 02-19-2002, 10:06 PM

Thank you all for your input. I am a novice pistol shooter, in that I don't own my own hand gun. I have been shooting my father's various pistols since I was about 13 and I've shot competitively in skeet and sporting clay events. My experience with pistols has been primarily a .44 Ruger Blackhawk, Colt Commander, and another Colt .45 that my dad still owns. In the last couple months I've tried a 9mm Berretta, SIG P220 (pvanosta's), a Ruger 1911, and a couple others. I can safely say that the 1911 frame's feel, weight, and action are the gun for me.

Unlike Pvanosta, I won't be dropping 3k on a pistol for some time. When I originally started doing my research for this purchase I did try a number of different guns and I looked at a wide range of prices. The most I'll spend on this gun will be about $1100. I could spend more, however I won't.

I chose this max price range for a number of reasons:

1) I won't be purchasing a gun for a long time. If I purchase another within five years I'll be surprising myself.

2) I don't want to let the gun out of my hands for any length of time so that a pistol smith can play with it or pretty it up.

3) I have a good idea what I want my pistol to feel like. I know pretty much what I want on the pistol.

4) I don't want to spend a lot of money on the pistol after purchase adding on the different extras (front stap checkering, etc). I know y'all will say that pistols are like boats, a hole into which you pour money

5) I plan to use the pistol in IDPA competition as I increase my accuracy with it. I won't be shooting at regionals or above most likely. I just plan to have a really good time with it.

6) I want to be the first owner of the gun.

When I look at all these factors, getting a basic mil-spec would just defeat the purpose. A Kimber would be nice (pre II), unfortunately I live in California, while the area has its advantages wide selection of pistols to choose from is not one of them.

To give you an idea, you can't buy brand new or used from an FFL:
Kimber I
Ed Brown anything
Wilson Combat (except 1 model)
Coonan
Caspian Frames

Do I need to go on? This does limit my choices.

I have handled the Kimber's and I really didn't like them that much. The little extras that I wanted to have all seemed to be just a little bit more expensive than other pistols. I handled some different Kimbers and the feel was ok, but I was looking at more money than what I wanted to spend for the options I wanted. Also I can only purchase the model IIs in CA.

I tried the Springfield TRP (base model) and really liked the feel, weight, etc. It was very comfortable. Slide cycled smoothly, mag eject, etc. I realize that some of the SA parts will be out of Colt spec and this will make it more costly to upgrade if I want to later, but the only thing I should need to do is polish the feed ramp a little if that.

I still have to revisit the Colt pistols as I haven't spent as much time as I should on their models although judging by the moans on this forum they are over-priced.

With whichever pistol I get I will be well positioned to add it to my limited group of guns that permit me to pursue home safety, competition, and hunting pleasures.

Once again, thanks for all the input.

Brodie

Sean Smith · 02-19-2002, 10:12 PM

With a $1,000 budget I suspect the best course of action IS a basic gun with key modifications. I don't think you will get better results with a $1,000 quasi-custom from Kimber or anybody else at that price point. But a good, reliable $500-600 production gun with the addition of a match barrel and a superior trigger is, functionally, pretty much identical to guns at triple the price. But you need to be selective about what you have done, and make sure somebody good does it, to make the price point and still get the most bang for the buck.

At $2,000 the picture kind of changes. You can have a basic production gun extensively modified by a good pistolsmith, or you can get something along the lines of an Ed Brown Kobra. Functionally, they won't really be any different... once you have trigger+sights+barrel all of the objective performance criteria are pretty much met. Tighter slide-to-frame fit will impress your friends, but won't give you any accuracy gains that are worth the trouble. Having a base gun customized lets you get EXACTLY what you want, but getting an Ed Brown or the like is alot more convenient and the quality is definitely there.

Randall_1611 · 02-19-2002, 10:19 PM

Just to give you more ideas, take some time and cruise the "home workshop" forums" about things that you can do! :smile: Mike

Sean Smith · 02-19-2002, 10:23 PM

IMHO Colt's aren't overpriced, if you are talking about their new basic Government Models (~$550)... although the S70 and 1911A1 reproductions are expensive.

At the $1,000 price point, nothing really stands out for me, except maybe an STI Trojan. If you want the best out-of-the-box 1911 at that price, the STI is probably it. Otherwise, I'd suggest getting a basic 1911 and having some key modifications made. The mods kind of depend on the gun, a Kimber will generally need the least mods for the most performance since they tend to be EXTREMELY accurate out of the box anyway... but put a Bar-Sto barrel in a Colt or SA and give it a top-notch trigger job and it will be functionally as good as anything out there for about $1,000.

Clay · 02-19-2002, 10:35 PM

The best 1911 I have cost me $620. It's a stock Kimber Custom Classic II. It's 100% reliable so far, the trigger is great, and it looks real nice with the walnut grips.

I started out ready to buy a Ed Brown Kobra fro $1800 because my two SA 1911's gave me problems.

I came across this Kimber last week and couldn't resist it :grin: . Best $620 I've ever spent.

I'll most likely get the Kobra later on, but for know I'm very happy :smile: .

Like Dane said, think real hard about getting a $600-$700 SA or Kimber, then you can go from there.

Just my take,
Clay

gyp_c2 · 02-19-2002, 10:40 PM

I'm not sure what you are talking about re: Colt specs, but the TRP IS a 1911...every bit and anything that's made for a 1911 will work with it...if you thought you needed "special" parts...you don't!
Anything that fits the others will fit it too...Good luck and hold out for what you WANT...even if you have to wait, it'll be worth it not to go through the next 5 years sayin' "why O' why didn't I take the BLUE pill"?!?

Get the one that will make you happy everytime you fool with it...

Sean Smith · 02-19-2002, 10:42 PM

Funny thing is, while I agree that the Kimber is probably the best basic price/performance gun (I owned Kimber Classic Stainless target that was superb), for some reason I don't particularly LIKE them. I just like Colts better. Make sure you actually like the gun before you get it, since after all you get to live with the gun, not a bunch of strangers on an internet forum. :grin:

pvanosta · 02-19-2002, 11:30 PM

gyp_c2
Actually, people like Tussey (and he says Bill Wilson agees with him on that), claim that certain 'holes' in the Springfield frame are .03 of an inch off spec, compared to a Colt (don't ask me which holes, it's something to do with one of the safeties I believe) and that that is why neither he nor Bill uses Springfield frames, because it's too much hassle to fix...

I don't know...I just heard him say this...

gyp_c2 · 02-21-2002, 08:57 AM

Ok...sounds like you have all the info...your choice...or choices, depending on what you want.

Good luck...

02-15-2002, 07:39 PM	#1
Brodog Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Long Beach, California Posts: 15	Reading a lot of these past posts, rants, and flames I've repeatedly seen people talk about this extractor, that extractor, how this part should be used because its a better part, or this checkering versus whatever. Now as I get ready to seriously look at purchasing a gun over $1000 (I know, not a TRUE custom gun) I wonder how I can understand the differences in some of these parts or the way they are matched together. I have gone to various manufacturer or gunsmiths web sites (Kimber, Wilson, SA, Colt, Ed Brown, and Dane Burns), I have read the various marketing hype and checked the posts here and in 1911forum.com. These sites have really helped me make some of the tough decisions. What I can't seem to see are those little imperfections that when I pick up the gun, I say to myself (well such and such is not seated right, I'll have to get that feed ramp polished, and so on...). Is there a web site out there or other good pictures that point out these things? I plan on running any gun through feeding/ejecting shells and such before I plunk my money down, but short of "renting" the time of a good smith to assist in shopping what's a guy to do to avoid the odd (Kimber, Wilson, SA, etc) that snuck out of the shop with serious problems? I am new to 1911 handguns and would really hate to pay that much money for something that I'll have to try to offload because six months down the road I find out what an over-rated/problematic piece of craftsmanship I've purchased. Any ideas or sites would be welcome. Thanks, Brodie <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Brodog on 2002-02-15 20:42 ]</font>

02-16-2002, 12:48 AM	#7
Brodog Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Long Beach, California Posts: 15	Thanks to all of you for your knowledgable input. I'm heading to a gun show here in California tomorrow with the intention of placing my hands on as many different 1911's as possible. I just wanted to get an idea for the things that I should look out for since not all of them will be of the high-end production/semi-custom. My intention is trying to notice the problems before I purchase next month. As I'm sure you have all experienced, this will be part pleasure, and part TORTURE (not buying the first nice one I see). Sometimes the pain is worth the end product though.:wink: I certainly hope it will be. I'll probably have to shoot a couple rounds of skeet on Sunday to balance the torture. If anyone else has other points on the weapon to check, please let me know. Thanks again, Brodie <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Brodog on 2002-02-16 01:50 ]</font>

02-16-2002, 01:11 AM	#8
JiminCA Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Kalifornia Posts: 169	If you're in southern CA go to the IDPA match next weekend at the ISI range. There will be about 70 shooters, and at least half will have 1911's. Many will let you shoot theirs. I'll let you shoot mine if you like. You can learn a lot in a short time with a little jawboning and trigger time. PM me if you are interested. <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: JiminCA on 2002-02-16 02:12 ]</font>

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02-15-2002, 07:50 PM	#2
glazer1972 Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 84	Maybe you could find someone a little more experienced in your area to go with you to a show. I am not the most knowing on 1911 but I can point out differences in the guns on the table. the complete book of 1911's magazine shows some of the things to look for. good luck!

02-15-2002, 08:03 PM	#3
Randall_1611 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WY Posts: 579	You have a good start. Read or search the threads in the "home workshop forum". Hopefully most of the pictures will still be up, look at detailed pictures in the "gun rags", look at as many as you can. You can feel a rough feed ramp, you can tell if the firing pin stop is loose and alows the ejector to move (rotate), you can see if the grips are flush with the frame, et. One set of factors for reliability and one set of factors for cosmetics. Where the two match is how they "feel" to you and fit your hand. For example, my K C-II, fits my hand and points (ballances) better (for me) after I installed a new grip safety and got out the file to blend it and the frame together.

02-15-2002, 08:27 PM	#4
Guest Posts: n/a	Wow! This is refreshing. Somebody wants info, and doesn't want to crucify anyone. Certainly got my attention, as I was getting quite bored with the recent traffic on the forum. I guess the first step, since you're new to 1911's, is to do what you've been doing - learn a little. It's a little overwhelming when you shift focus from stock factory guns to high end customs. It's only natural to think how much do I get for ???$, How much for ????$. I'd advise you to keep it simple, especially the first time out of the blocks. The beauty of the 1911 system is that you can improve the gun incrementally, at your own chosen pace.You can spend as much or as little as you feel you need to. If you start with a basic gun, and begin to learn to shoot, you'll discover which custom modifications make sense for you, and which may not. Will you make mistakes? Count on it. There will be more 1911's, I promise you. Learning is fun - expensive at times, but fun nonetheless. Use this forum, ask questions, look at the photos posted, and have fun. We're here for you. Good luck!

02-15-2002, 08:31 PM	#5
Sean Smith Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 1,580	This may sound like a goofy suggestion, but here goes: handle a bunch of different ones and see what you like best. Don't worry so much about which one "should" be the best, because you are the one who has to live with it, not a bunch of yahoos on an internet forum. If you think a Colt feels better than a Wilson Combat, get the Colt, shoot it a while, then decide if you want anything changed. If you like Wilson Combat, Les Baer or Ed Brown best and you can afford them, then go for it. The odds of any of them being genuinely defective are pretty small. Why do I say that? Well, alot of your satisfaction is going to be subjective, not objective. You have to live with the gun, not anyone on this forum, and odds are that as long as it isn't a Charles Daly or something and doesn't have defects that a layperson can pick up on, you are going to get a good product. So don't sweat the little stuff. If you decide to have somebody work on your gun, ask what the pistolsmiths's CUSTOMERS think of them; all other opinions are utterly irrelevant and should just be considered background noise. Personally, unless they admit to using pig iron and bailing wire to put their guns together, you don't have to sweat the details of what a reputable 'smith is going to put into the sucker... and if they aren't reputable then who knows what you are getting anyway.

02-15-2002, 08:37 PM	#6
Sean Smith Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 1,580	Oh yeah, what Ted said. :grin: Seriously, he is on the money. It will probably take a while for you to decide what you REALLY want anyway, and as long as you don't get something really horrible or have some truly stupid work done on your gun it isn't a big deal. Heck, even really stupid work can be fixed pretty easily by a good 'smith. The BCP-tweaked Delta Elite that I'm always showing off and shooting the crap out of started as a BROKEN gun that I sent to Dane with a short to-do list. Now it is exactly what I want and works, well, perfectly. You have to try pretty hard to permenantly damage a 1911.

02-16-2002, 08:29 AM	#9
Sean Smith Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 1,580	OK, some obvious stuff to check. Before you buy the gun you are actually going to take home, ask to function check the safties on the gun you are about to pay for. If the guy selling the gun doesn't let you do this, put the gun back in the box and leave immediately. This lets you do two thing: (a) make sure the safties work, and (b) evaluate the quality of the trigger. NOTE: don't test a firing pin block (if present) by dropping the gun nose-down on the concrete. :grin: Most functional defects aren't going to be picked up on by a lay shooter anyway, but you can look for obvious stuff like making sure all the parts are actually there. If you have a new snap cap (and they let you use it) you can chamber it to verify that the firing pin actually puts a mark in something, that the extractor can extract something and the ejector can eject something. Of course, it isn't a real bullet, but if you the firing pin does NOTHING, or the snap cap doesn't even get pulled out of the chamber you should probably go for a stroll.

02-17-2002, 05:47 PM	#10
gyp_c2 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Colorado or Louisiana or... Posts: 1,420	Try 'em all...Handle every dang one you can find. Note the things you like and don't like. Ask questions about everything. It's your money, it's your hide and it's gonna' be your gun! No matter what anyone says, take it and use it to apply to the one YOU like the best. If you can find any that FEEL GOOD, you are already close...then you can pepper everyone with questions and get a little further along. If you already have a good idea about what you like, start there. If not, take your time and have fun with it. You will never get to buy the FIRST ONE again! Good luck and let us know what you come up with!

02-17-2002, 10:10 PM	#11
pvanosta Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Long Beach, CA Posts: 36	Brodog, By now you've been to the gun show and, like me, you saw there was nothing there worth seeing, except for a couple of decently priced .44 MAG revolvers and the stand of Terry Tussey. I picked up and closely inspected every gun on the table. I was already well impressed. Then he pulled a 'Best Gun' out of a bag and handed it to me. It was a whole new experience. Perfect fit and finish, gorgeous Caspian Damascus steel slide and hammer, and a slide that cycled like steel on ice. As soon as I put the gun down, I knew I had to have one just like it. The way to go: buy a recent, basic 1911 COLT (no Kimber, no Springfield, just COLT) and ship it to him with $2500 and he'll build the gun of your dreams in 1 year. Up until now, I too was in the market for a $1100 or so Springfield TRP or something like that. Now, I'm spoiled because of that Tussey. I'll be buying my basic Colt in a month or so. There is no way I can live with a Wilson or Ed Brown after that, as good as they are. I might still buy my TRP to tide me over, while I wait for my full-house custom to be delivered. Then I'll sell the TRP... JiminCA: I'm a colleague and friend of Brodog. I'm interested in checking out this IDPA in SoCA. I'll PM you as well.

02-19-2002, 04:11 PM	#12
Cowboybobb693 Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lincoln, Texas Posts: 43	Why would you want to part with that amount of money and have your weapon in someone else's hands for a year when you can buy a Kimber , Wilson etc.. right off of the shelf ??? and unless you are a better shot than 99% of us you will never need that type of performance( tight groups) if you want to carry concealed, Oh I forgot, you live in the state that us gave Diane Fineberg, you remember her don't you, she is your anti-gun senator.

02-19-2002, 04:35 PM	#13
Sean Smith Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 1,580	I wouldn't make the plunge and drop 3 large on a gun when you aren't that certain of what you want in the first place. I don't know if the gratuitous "California Sucks!" comment is really necessary, though.

02-19-2002, 05:58 PM	#14
Number 6 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 520	Is the budget now "three large?" If so, either: 1. Save 1/3 of that, or 2. Get one heck of an all-out race gun, if that is your game. Either way, go to http://www.sviguns.com and click on GunBuilder (after viewing and drooling over the slide show). The object of this exercise is to give you, in a very quick fashion, an overview of just what can be built specifically for you, down to a level of specificity you may well find overwhelming (I did). It will be educational, and give you an excellent idea of what to look for when you DO build your gun.

02-19-2002, 08:09 PM	#15
Dane Burns Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Issaquah, WA Posts: 3,830	So I guess Ted and I work cheap :grin: First time shopper? $1000. is too much IMO. Better of for you and me ow and you down the road to go buy a inexpensive gun, Kimber Classic or a Springfield loaded IMO. Shoot it for a year or two, get what you NEED changed and learn what you MIGHT want changed of the next few years. Shoot all your new 1911 buddy's guns :grin: By that time you'll either know what you really want or be happy with the original I suspect. There is no reason in the world to make your first 1911 cost more than $600/$700 even if $4K is just chump change to you.

02-19-2002, 08:40 PM	#16
abnranger Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 137	This is one thing that I must agree with others on. Go out and shoot all the handgusn you can, and from various 'smiths and makers. What felt/looked lihe the firearm of your dreams/nightmare at a show could just a show. Hell you may find that a Glock with Heinie sights is the ideal handgun. Or you may find that a Kimber with Novaks and a S&A magwell will suit your needs. It is very easy to get sucked into the price makes better--all around, not just cosmetically. If you insist someone will take that 3K off your hands and make the pistol of your dreams. If you have the chance try 'em out at the range, in the long run it could save you big bucks. From experience I have had a few of those "be all to end all" pistols; it is certain others here will vouch for that. You take a bath selling it and its accessories, to finance what your shooting buds say is the ultimate handgun. Ask yourself, what are you going to use it for, what items are needed(ambis, night sights, front cocking serrations, serrated back of slide, etc. or are they cosmetic wants), what caliber do you favor, ammo availability and reloadability--I know, things like 357 sig or 9X21/23/25 can be hard to find. Then if there is nothing available from a manufacturer get a pistol plumber into your firearm.

02-19-2002, 08:49 PM	#17
Sean Smith Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 1,580	Ha ha... so much for these pistolsmiths being out to soak people for everything they're worth. :razz: Anyway, sinking big bucks on a gun is fine if you know what you really want, but personally I didn't have a really good idea what I wanted in a 1911 until about a year and a half after I started looking into it. Other people can give you good advice on objective stuff like the quality of part maker X or Y, but alot of what will make you happy or unhappy with a pistol may be subjective, personal and downright eccentric. At least, I know I'm eccentric about what I like. :grin:

02-19-2002, 08:54 PM	#18
pvanosta Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Long Beach, CA Posts: 36	Dane, Number6 et al... No disrespect Gentlemen, but neither Brodog nor I are novice shooters. This is just our first 1911 purchase and we both want to get "it" right first time, even if we have different budgets to play with. I have been shooting handguns on and off for the past 15 years. Growing up in Europe, the tendency was toward more modern guns (my favorite so far: the Sig P220 in .45 acp, which I still own). Over time, I have also owned (and used extensively) the S&W 29, a Desert Eagle .44 MAG, a Dan Wesson .357 MAG and a Coonan Arms .357 MAG. Today, I still have the SIG, the Dan Wesson and the Coonan. Strange as it may seem here, the Colt 1911 is regarded as somewhat of an antique in Europe, when compared to the SIGs and the HK's. PLEASE: I don't mean to start a flaming war here. I'm only describing a perception in the rest of the world. Personally: I love the feel of the 1911. It suits my hand and my shooting style. So: bearing in mind that 1. I am a decent shot and 2. I have other guns already and I'm not a millionaire I want to buy 1 1911, as close to the best as I can afford, to last me 'a lifetime'. That's why I am drawn to the Tussey kind of gun, even after manipulating the Springfield TRP's of this world...

02-19-2002, 09:42 PM	#19
Randall_1611 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WY Posts: 579	If you can find the right 1911 with the first purchase :smile: you're doing very well. I read the gun rags and ended up with my Randall which I still have and last year lucked into a rare .38 Super and a very nice Delta 10mm, both Colts' and both have ran 100% so far. In late October I lose my shirt (well, not really) in a trade for a new Kimber Compact II. 45 and wanted to "fix it up ... for me" It worked very well too. Right now its in about four places in the house as I work on it. Changing things to what I want ... after shooting friends guns, looking at and handling 1911 at the shows, in stores, et. I did not know what I wanted and as things progress, ideas change. I tried Heines on a glock, they might end up on the Kimber later on. I have others to shoot while "filing on the Kimber". This works for me! The two colts are still my favorites. Over 90% of the shooters that I know have more than one 1911 and one Glock ... like rabbits ... LOL Mike

02-19-2002, 09:57 PM	#20
fortyfiveshooter Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 265	I started out with a SA loaded, traded for a Kimber, traded for a Para limited, traded for a Kimber Gold Match, traded for a Colt Gold Cup sold to have a Nowlin built. Eventually you will want a semi-custom, or custom 1911....that is why there are so many smith who specialize in them, you want to make it personal to you, give it soul and make it a real shooter whether you shoot it or not. If you found that first time out then more power to you, some of us are still looking!!! Go for it

02-19-2002, 10:06 PM	#21
Brodog Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Long Beach, California Posts: 15	Thank you all for your input. I am a novice pistol shooter, in that I don't own my own hand gun. I have been shooting my father's various pistols since I was about 13 and I've shot competitively in skeet and sporting clay events. My experience with pistols has been primarily a .44 Ruger Blackhawk, Colt Commander, and another Colt .45 that my dad still owns. In the last couple months I've tried a 9mm Berretta, SIG P220 (pvanosta's), a Ruger 1911, and a couple others. I can safely say that the 1911 frame's feel, weight, and action are the gun for me. Unlike Pvanosta, I won't be dropping 3k on a pistol for some time. When I originally started doing my research for this purchase I did try a number of different guns and I looked at a wide range of prices. The most I'll spend on this gun will be about $1100. I could spend more, however I won't. I chose this max price range for a number of reasons: 1) I won't be purchasing a gun for a long time. If I purchase another within five years I'll be surprising myself. 2) I don't want to let the gun out of my hands for any length of time so that a pistol smith can play with it or pretty it up. 3) I have a good idea what I want my pistol to feel like. I know pretty much what I want on the pistol. 4) I don't want to spend a lot of money on the pistol after purchase adding on the different extras (front stap checkering, etc). I know y'all will say that pistols are like boats, a hole into which you pour money 5) I plan to use the pistol in IDPA competition as I increase my accuracy with it. I won't be shooting at regionals or above most likely. I just plan to have a really good time with it. 6) I want to be the first owner of the gun. When I look at all these factors, getting a basic mil-spec would just defeat the purpose. A Kimber would be nice (pre II), unfortunately I live in California, while the area has its advantages wide selection of pistols to choose from is not one of them. To give you an idea, you can't buy brand new or used from an FFL: Kimber I Ed Brown anything Wilson Combat (except 1 model) Coonan Caspian Frames Do I need to go on? This does limit my choices. I have handled the Kimber's and I really didn't like them that much. The little extras that I wanted to have all seemed to be just a little bit more expensive than other pistols. I handled some different Kimbers and the feel was ok, but I was looking at more money than what I wanted to spend for the options I wanted. Also I can only purchase the model IIs in CA. I tried the Springfield TRP (base model) and really liked the feel, weight, etc. It was very comfortable. Slide cycled smoothly, mag eject, etc. I realize that some of the SA parts will be out of Colt spec and this will make it more costly to upgrade if I want to later, but the only thing I should need to do is polish the feed ramp a little if that. I still have to revisit the Colt pistols as I haven't spent as much time as I should on their models although judging by the moans on this forum they are over-priced. With whichever pistol I get I will be well positioned to add it to my limited group of guns that permit me to pursue home safety, competition, and hunting pleasures. Once again, thanks for all the input. Brodie

02-19-2002, 10:12 PM	#22
Sean Smith Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 1,580	With a $1,000 budget I suspect the best course of action IS a basic gun with key modifications. I don't think you will get better results with a $1,000 quasi-custom from Kimber or anybody else at that price point. But a good, reliable $500-600 production gun with the addition of a match barrel and a superior trigger is, functionally, pretty much identical to guns at triple the price. But you need to be selective about what you have done, and make sure somebody good does it, to make the price point and still get the most bang for the buck. At $2,000 the picture kind of changes. You can have a basic production gun extensively modified by a good pistolsmith, or you can get something along the lines of an Ed Brown Kobra. Functionally, they won't really be any different... once you have trigger+sights+barrel all of the objective performance criteria are pretty much met. Tighter slide-to-frame fit will impress your friends, but won't give you any accuracy gains that are worth the trouble. Having a base gun customized lets you get EXACTLY what you want, but getting an Ed Brown or the like is alot more convenient and the quality is definitely there.

02-19-2002, 10:19 PM	#23
Randall_1611 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WY Posts: 579	Just to give you more ideas, take some time and cruise the "home workshop" forums" about things that you can do! :smile: Mike

02-19-2002, 10:23 PM	#24
Sean Smith Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 1,580	IMHO Colt's aren't overpriced, if you are talking about their new basic Government Models (~$550)... although the S70 and 1911A1 reproductions are expensive. At the $1,000 price point, nothing really stands out for me, except maybe an STI Trojan. If you want the best out-of-the-box 1911 at that price, the STI is probably it. Otherwise, I'd suggest getting a basic 1911 and having some key modifications made. The mods kind of depend on the gun, a Kimber will generally need the least mods for the most performance since they tend to be EXTREMELY accurate out of the box anyway... but put a Bar-Sto barrel in a Colt or SA and give it a top-notch trigger job and it will be functionally as good as anything out there for about $1,000.

02-19-2002, 10:35 PM	#25
Clay Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 420	The best 1911 I have cost me $620. It's a stock Kimber Custom Classic II. It's 100% reliable so far, the trigger is great, and it looks real nice with the walnut grips. I started out ready to buy a Ed Brown Kobra fro $1800 because my two SA 1911's gave me problems. I came across this Kimber last week and couldn't resist it :grin: . Best $620 I've ever spent. I'll most likely get the Kobra later on, but for know I'm very happy :smile: . Like Dane said, think real hard about getting a $600-$700 SA or Kimber, then you can go from there. Just my take, Clay

02-19-2002, 10:40 PM	#26
gyp_c2 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Colorado or Louisiana or... Posts: 1,420	I'm not sure what you are talking about re: Colt specs, but the TRP IS a 1911...every bit and anything that's made for a 1911 will work with it...if you thought you needed "special" parts...you don't! Anything that fits the others will fit it too...Good luck and hold out for what you WANT...even if you have to wait, it'll be worth it not to go through the next 5 years sayin' "why O' why didn't I take the BLUE pill"?!? Get the one that will make you happy everytime you fool with it...

02-19-2002, 10:42 PM	#27
Sean Smith Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 1,580	Funny thing is, while I agree that the Kimber is probably the best basic price/performance gun (I owned Kimber Classic Stainless target that was superb), for some reason I don't particularly LIKE them. I just like Colts better. Make sure you actually like the gun before you get it, since after all you get to live with the gun, not a bunch of strangers on an internet forum. :grin:

02-19-2002, 11:30 PM	#28
pvanosta Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Long Beach, CA Posts: 36	gyp_c2 Actually, people like Tussey (and he says Bill Wilson agees with him on that), claim that certain 'holes' in the Springfield frame are .03 of an inch off spec, compared to a Colt (don't ask me which holes, it's something to do with one of the safeties I believe) and that that is why neither he nor Bill uses Springfield frames, because it's too much hassle to fix... I don't know...I just heard him say this...

02-21-2002, 08:57 AM	#29
gyp_c2 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Colorado or Louisiana or... Posts: 1,420	Ok...sounds like you have all the info...your choice...or choices, depending on what you want. Good luck...