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Old 11-11-2002, 10:14 AM   #1
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Hot .45 ACP Loads?

All of my single stack 1911s in .45 have traditional non-ramped, non-supported barrels/chambers. That having been said, I would like to work up a hot self defense load using 230 grain HPs and +P brass. Has anyone experimented with powders such as Power Pistol, VV 3N37/3N38, 800x, AA #7/#9, or other relatively slow burning powders? Any load data would be greatly appreciated!
 
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Old 11-12-2002, 08:37 AM   #2
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My favorite is 6.3 of Universal Clays.
 
Old 11-12-2002, 04:38 PM   #3
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John: with what bullet and did you chronograph it?
 
Old 11-13-2002, 06:01 AM   #4
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Looks like the slowest powder V V recommends is N350. The load data says 7.6 grains will move a 230 g. XTP 978 fps from a 5 1/2" barrel. Maybe I'll try this.

Does the Clays show any signs of excessive pressure ie; primer flattening or case bulge?

http://www.vihtavuori.fi/vihtavuori/index.html
 
Old 11-13-2002, 05:29 PM   #5
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Good 45 loads are Gunnar Christianson's 45/08, or our 45 super slammer. 230gr, around 1250 fps. Blue dot compressed load.

Bill Caldwell
Wild Bill Caldwell Tactical Weaponry
 
Old 11-20-2002, 06:13 PM   #6
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If you are looking for top velocity with a 230gr bullet then RamShot Enforcer is the best powder I have found. I have a load that will push a 230gr bullet at 1028fps. Go to www.ramshot.com and download there manual. If you should try this load use CCI mag primers. Winchester and Federal primers give a lot less velocity.
 
Old 11-20-2002, 08:14 PM   #7
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Thanks for info 5pins! I'll have to try some Enforcer powder it looks very versitile.
 
Old 11-21-2002, 04:57 AM   #8
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Wow. That's from a 4" barrel too!
 
Old 01-28-2003, 05:24 PM   #9
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Re: Hot .45 ACP Loads?

I would like to work up a hot self defense load using 230 grain HPs and +P brass.


DO NOT use reloads for self defense. If you are ever in a shooting the defense attorney will tear you apart. He will put forth to a jury that you specifically designed the round to kill his client. Using reloads for self defense is a nightmare nobody wants any part of.
 
Old 02-04-2003, 07:27 PM   #10
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Re: Hot .45 ACP Loads?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhysjulien
I would like to work up a hot self defense load using 230 grain HPs and +P brass.


DO NOT use reloads for self defense. If you are ever in a shooting the defense attorney will tear you apart. He will put forth to a jury that you specifically designed the round to kill his client. Using reloads for self defense is a nightmare nobody wants any part of.
Can you post a reference to any actual Lawful shooting where the shooter was worse off having used reloads? A righteous shooting is just that.

I know this is conventional wisdom..... But I have been asking for anyone to prove this bit of internet lore for years...so far no takers.
 
Old 02-05-2003, 10:25 AM   #11
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bigjim,

I spent 9 years in Law Enforcement, 7 as a Firearms Instructor, and during that time I had the oppurtunity to speak with defense attorneys, prosecuting attorneys, other firearms instructors, judges, etc. about this subject. ALL of them stated that it was a huge liability to use reloads for self defense. I don't know of any cases offhand, I'll have to do research and find them. When I find them I'll post the references to the cases.

To state that a righteous shoot is just that is very naive. It isn't righteous until the Courts say it is (Civil and Criminal). To state that this is an Internet Myth shows how misinformed you are. Does Mas Ayoob, Jim Cirillo, Clint Smith, Louis Awerbuck, or anyone else state that reloads are ok for self defense? Besides the liablility there are reliability issues. For that reason alone reloads shouldn't be used.

Bryce
 
Old 02-05-2003, 11:00 AM   #12
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I'm sorry Bryce, but this is nonsense.

A good shoot is a good shoot. Being in law enforcement, you should be well aware of that.

This argument of reloads vs. factory is getting pretty old, and pretty tiresome.

If someone needed shooting, then the bullets are irrelevent, and any defense attorney worth a grain of salt can rebut any prosecution statements about "killer bullets" and reloads. A simple defense is that reloads are used/carried, because the shooter is conscious enough of his surroundings that he didn't want any errant bullets to hit the proverbial "innocent bystanders". By carefully reloading with published reloading manuals (approved by the powder manufacturers), the reloader has taken the time and care to make the best, most ACCURATE ammunition that he can, so no INNOCENT BYSTANDERS are killed.

I am so tired of hearing this crap.

Oh, I have also had 5 misfires with factory ammo over the years - three hard primers and two that just wouldn't go bang. Guess how many misfires I have had since I have been responsible for what comes out the barrels of my pistols?

(NONE).
 
Old 02-05-2003, 02:39 PM   #13
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We can agree to disagree. I would rather not get into the typical internet style argument because it doesn't do any good or serve any purpose. If we were closer together I'd invite you and bigjim for a beer (or whatever) and we could discuss the issue. We'd probably still disagree but it would be fun and a lot less typing.

Because of my experience in Law Enforcement I know that the only good shoot is a shoot that IA, your Dept., and the courts say is good. The shooter may be justified but the entities listed above may disagree and take action they deem appropriate. Then it will all be decided in the courts or an internal investigation. You may emerge acquitted of any wrong doing. The damage to your career, family/personal life, and general well being may be great or non-existent.

Defense/Prosecuting attorneys don't decide trials, juries do. Your attorney can rebut all they want but if the jury doesn't buy it you're done. Law Enforcement also taught me that you can't ever trust that a jury will go your way no matter how convincing your attorney is. I've been involved in trials where the defendant was caught with narcotics, a proper search was done, everything was by the book. And had the jury acquitted, go figure. Not using reloads gives the other side one less weapon to use against you.

I won't carry reloads in any defensive weapon by choice and on the advice of legal experts. You can choose to do whatever you wish. It's worth it to me in todays litigous, anti-gun society not to have to worry about an attorney attacking the reloaded ammo.

I've never had premium factory ammo (Hydra-shocks, Silvertips, etc.) fail, but about every 1,000 reloaded rounds I have to hit a primer twice.
 
Old 02-06-2003, 03:50 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhysjulien
We can agree to disagree.
Indeed.

Your points are not without merit, but if the legal system can turn a guy like O.J. loose, then the LEAST of my worries is what ammo I choose to use and carry.

I do not disagree with you about the fickleness of juries however. It's a roll of the dice no matter what ammo you use. If I have choosen to shoot someone, I am already in control of the situation (or should be). Being in control of one more variable (ammo choice) only adds to the control factor. It does not paint me as a homicidal maniac who loads armor-piercing, explosive tipped bullets in a corner of my dark and dingy basement. It shows that I have responsibilties when I choose to carry a weapon for self defense. It shows I care enough about the seriousness of what I may encounter, to eliminate as many variables as possible. Reloading gives me more confidence in my abiltity to do what needs to be done if/when the time comes, by eliminating some more unknowns.

And I will buy the beer should you wish to carry this conversation further. Thank you for your civil response, when mine was slightly on the abrasive side.
 
Old 02-15-2003, 03:08 PM   #15
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I have a Para Ord P10 that has lousy case support and lousy feeding and a very small recoil spring assembly [the Seecamp patent type], and small slide. All this make a difficult challenge to devlop a 45 Super defense load.

I used National Bullet's copperized 152 gr SWC. This is a light bullet with a sharp shoulder for cutting a big hole to bleed through.

I used Starline +P brass, as it has a thick web and thick walls in the area over the feed ramp.

I used Power Pistol powder for the highest velocity for how much pressure, but I may switch to 3N37 to reduce the flash. 12.5 gr Power Pistol gives first sign of a tiny case bulge, and I carry 12 gr. This load is very loud.
 
Old 02-19-2003, 04:24 AM   #16
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Win 230 FMJ 10.5g Vectan SP2 1.260” CCI300 1031 1002 1018

Win 230 FMJ 7.2g Unique 1.260” CCI300 962 932 942

Hornady 200 JSWC-CT 1.240” 7.0g Unique CCI300 1005 916 971

Win 230 FMJ 7.5g VV N350 1.260” CCI300 961 925 943

Hornady 200 JSWC-CT 8.0 VV N350 1.240” CCI300 1005 987 1001

Precision 230 RN 7.5g VV N350 1.260” CCI300 954 937 948

Win 230 FMJ 8.1g Power Pistol 1.260” CCI300 977 965 971

Data represented as bullet / powder weight / powder / OAL / primer / high velocity / low velocity / average velocity

Some (maybe all) of these loads are over book max. Work up to them with common sense and do so at your own risk. All loads tested with a HK USP45F in about 95 degree heat with about 90% humidity
 
Old 02-25-2003, 09:39 PM   #17
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Shane,
My mother told me not to discuss politics or religion with guests.
I am beginning to think I should not debate stress analysis and proof loads vs "what a gun was designed for" or " are handloads ok for carry?" on the internet.

I have debated both questions in 40 forums all over the internet, and I am beginning to think it makes as much sense as arguing abortion, evolution, and drug legalization at Thanksgiving.

When you say you are tired of it, I am realizing that no information or idea will change a stuck point of view.

I am a consulting engineer, and I get calls when engineers get stuck. Once I convince them what is going on and what to do, they usually come up with something better themselves. 90% of the time what makes an impass is engineers will not let go of their way of looking at something.

It seems to be human nature to continue looking at something the same way if they can. Just let 'em.
 
Old 02-26-2003, 12:11 AM   #18
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re Handloads and Lawyers

bigjim wrote:

Can you post a reference to any actual Lawful shooting where the shooter was worse off having used reloads? A righteous shooting is just that.

I would guess that the advice comes mainly from logic. I know that if
you are morally and legally justified, it doesn't matter one whit what you
use in the way of a weapon or ammunition...at least in theory...and it
probably won't in a legal sense. However, a civil suit often follows no
sort of logical framework, and a handloaded round could be construed as
reckless disregard, and even malice intent. In such a case, no holds are
barred as the plaintiff's lawyer pulls out the stops to get into your nest
egg, and if the handload is brought to light, I can about guarantee that it
won't be a good point for the defendant. Besides all of which, any
significant increase in bullet velocity runs a greater risk of overpenetration
and collateral casualties. Just like a vehicle that is out of control, you want
it to come to a stop as quickly as possible, hopefully without hitting anything.

In short...Why chance giving the pursuant a better chance at taking
all that you own and half of what you will earn for the rest of your life
based on maybe a 2 or 3% increase in ammunition performance?
The one-shot stop is theoritical, and anyone who expexts to obtain
it with a pistol is kidding himself. My vote for handloaded ammunition
that exceeds standard velocity and energy figures is NO. If it has been
downloaded for target work, and you are prepared to bear the cost of
having it tested by an independent expert, then it would probably be
okay.

When a well-known .45 advocate heard that Marshall and Sanow gave
the hardball round a 65% rating, he shrugged and responded...Shoot twice.

Regards,
Tuner
 
Old 02-26-2003, 12:15 AM   #19
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typos abound

I wrote..."theoritical" Dang typos...I shoot pretty good...Can't type a lick.

ops:

T
 
Old 02-26-2003, 05:02 AM   #20
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Quote:
Besides all of which, any
significant increase in bullet velocity runs a greater risk of overpenetration
and collateral casualties. Just like a vehicle that is out of control, you want
it to come to a stop as quickly as possible, hopefully without hitting anything.
Surely, you jest!
 
Old 02-26-2003, 05:51 AM   #21
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Jesters

Surely, you jest!

Well...After hitting the BG, that is....

Sometimes I do these posts in the wee hours...before gettin' enough coffee down my neck to connect my brain to my fingers...

Ain't gettin' old a pisser though?
 
Old 02-26-2003, 06:31 AM   #22
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1911 Tuner:

Boy do I know that feeling!


Tito
 
Old 02-26-2003, 06:50 AM   #23
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Feeling...

Aw man...Dont talk about feelings...I hurt in so many places I gotta have a mirror ta see'em all.

Be well!

T
 
Old 03-11-2003, 04:57 PM   #24
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If want high velocity and energy, can't use a 230 gr bullet,

because the controlability of recoil suffers too much,especially in lw, compact carry guns. Shooting lots of animals has proven to me and others that high velocity reallyIS the way to go, if your bullet design is correct. Cirillo advocates the highest velocity and energy that you can control, with the most ferociously expanding bullet possible. He has stated in print that he concocted not only the ammo, but also the bullet with which his partner shot a robber,using his .45. He's also stated in print that if he were again doing stakeouts, he'd use a similar bullet, in a .44 mag revolver,obviously with reloaded ammo, since no one offers such a load commercially, or indeed, even offers the bullet. I'll worry about the courts AFTER I win the fight. The odds are 10 to 1 that the guy won't make you shoot him anyway, and in most cases, the authorities will never KNOW that you used reloads, if you are careful in how you put together your carry ammo.
 
Old 03-12-2003, 07:51 PM   #25
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I thought I read that Cirillo's bullets were going to be produced (this was a while ago). I don't remember by whom but I think they were going to be called, "Pin Grabbers". Anyone else heard of this?

Bryce
 
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