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Old 06-25-2002, 06:53 AM   #1
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454 vs. 475 linebaugh

ive shot the 454 enough, and the kick doesnt bother me. i also subscribe to the theory that bigger is better- so with that in mind how much more does the 475 linebaugh kick? 8)
 
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Old 06-25-2002, 08:11 AM   #2
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Hey Lefty, if ya wanna run with the big dogs...

...better get off the porch, and step up to a .475 Linebaugh.


Words often fail to fully describe differences in felt recoil, but rest assured, the differences between the .454 Casull and .475 Linebaugh can be felt.

...and ya still haven't touched of a .500 Linebaugh Long!

I dug up a link to some John Taffin articles about shooting these hand cannons that I thought you might find of interest. Just for grins, here is a great quote from John that gives you his perspective on felt recoil.

"Normally I need a minimum of 200 to 300 rounds of brass to Taffin Test any cartridge. When I shot the .475 Linebaugh Long or Maximum I was thankful that I had less than forty rounds and would not ever be shooting more than this at any one session. Then came the .500 Linebaugh Long and I would have been satisfied with a dozen rounds!"

...Taffin continues:

"The recoil with the .500 Linebaugh Long in full house loadings is serious to say the least. A shooting glove is essential and I use a Chimere with the lightly padded palm and then tape the knuckle of the middle finger on my shooting hand with several layers of adhesive tape. I also tape my trigger to avoid being cut by the bottom of the trigger. Even so, it takes a tremendous amount of concentration and expended strength to fire thirty to forty rounds of this biggest of all revolver cartridges that will still fit in a portable package. Not only is this the case but I also found myself taking such a beating that it was not unusual to become physically ill from shooting the big .500. My normal procedure was to shoot the test rounds early in the morning and in every case I found myself needing to lie down and recoup by afternoon. I cannot emphasize enough that this is a serious cartridge and not a revolver to be purchased for braggin' rights."

Here is that link I mentioned: http://www.sixguns.com/tests/index.html

I would also recommend reading John Linebaugh's Gun Notes: http://www.sixgunner.com/linebaugh/Default.htm



John Linebaugh Custom Matched .475 and .500 Case Set


DD
 
Old 06-25-2002, 12:53 PM   #3
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To be fair, Desert Dog is quoting Taffin on the Linebaugh Long (aka: Maximum) cartridges, not the standard length Linebaugh.

I have fired Ruger Redhawks converted by Hamilton Bowen to .475 Linebaugh and .500 Linebaugh. Both revolvers were fitted with full underlug barrels, 6" and 4" respectively. The .500 with full-power Buffalo Bore ammo lifted as much in recoil as the Ruger Super Redhawk in .454 Casull with Winchester ammo. However, the .500 did not have the sudden and painful torque of the .454 Casull. The full-power .475 loads were even easier to shoot than the .500, but this was likely due to the individual gun weights.

The .475 'training' loads from Buffalo Bore were really quite pleasant.
 
Old 06-25-2002, 02:21 PM   #4
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Yes, D.E. you are correct in pointing this out. I was trying to interject a bit of humor, not obfuscate the facts (not that you infer that). Thank you for adding your clarification. I thought Mr. Taffin's remarks were pretty funny. Anyway, if one can handle full power .454 Casull loads, it really isn't that drastic a transiton to the .475 Linebaugh. However, we shouldn't trivialize the .454 Casull's recoil force. Quoting here from author 'Paco' Kelly:

"Shooting it is a real experience for those who are not used to heavy-recoiling revolvers. I have seen more than one person get hit in head (hard enough to raise a lump) when firing full power .454 Casull loads."


Paco demostrating Freedom Arm .454 Casull under full recoil.


It should be noted here, that the platforms used to lauch those same rounds, do cause greatly different perceptions of felt recoil. Single Action revolvers (like Mr. Taffin uesd in his tests) tend to roll up in the hand (roughly 3:00 to 11:00) when recoiling hard. Whereas with the far bigger and heavier Ruger Redhawk DA frame (you cited), with their full underlug barrels, and considerably different stock configurations, a shooter would not experience and displace the effects of the recoil in quite the same manner. You also neglected to mention if the Bowen conversion you shot had one Hamilton's (normally included on .475 & .500s) muzzle breaks. That would change the outcome of your comparison a fair amount. I like to think of the SA revolver as taking more of an Aikido approach to directing energy, and the DA style revolver as trying to fight the energy. YMMV.


John Linbaugh Stainless Steel Bisley in .475 Linebaugh


Ruger Super Redhawk in .44 Magnum


Hamilton Bowen Redhawk L-Frame .454 Casull


DD
 
Old 06-25-2002, 07:23 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Dog
You also neglected to mention if the Bowen conversion you shot had one Hamilton's (normally included on .475 & .500s) muzzle breaks. That would change the outcome of your comparison a fair amount.
The Bowen Redhawks that I shot did not have muzzle brakes or porting. They were equipped with Pachmayr Presentation stocks, which I find to be too large for my hand in general, but are even worse on the Redhawk. However, these conversions were still more comfortable to shoot than the .454 Casull Super Redhawk.

The torque of the .454 Casull Super Redhawk with factory stocks is distinctly unpleasant. It rotates sideways through the web of my hand, and my trigger finger was routinely struck by the frame above the trigger.
 
Old 06-25-2002, 10:12 PM   #6
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thanks for the info guys. ive definately got to have one. got 2 other projects on the works right now that ive got to get finished first though. i know one of the 'smiths at magnum research and i think i'll have him build me a custom 475 on the bfr frame, have him make it nice and tight, reshape the top of the backstrap a bit, and im definately considering a muzzle brake.
 
Old 07-07-2002, 06:48 PM   #7
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Desert Dog,

The picture of the Super Redhawk appears to be a .44. The .454 does not have a fluted cylinder.

D.E.Watters,

I have never noticed the torque which you speak of but do not discount it. Could it be a byproduct of the specific ammo you use. I normally stick to homegrown 300 grain Sierra and Speer loads and have not noticed it. I do notice the unpleasant thump of the stub frame bottoming out in the stock rubber grips.
 
Old 07-07-2002, 10:50 PM   #8
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Good eye nemisis! I have now corrected that caption. When trying to put that post together, I had a hard time finding the right image. Ruger's web site SRH .454 photo is not working. Anyway, the fluted cylinder would be a dead give away, as would the lack of the "Target Gray" SS finish, that is exclusive to SRHs chambered for the .454 Casull and .480 Ruger. For those not familiar with the new .480 Ruger, it is a round that fills the middle ground of power, between the less powerful .44 Magnum, and the more powerful .454 Casull. Here are the correct photos:


Ruger Super Redhawk .454 Casull
(show with the 9 1/2" barell)


Ruger Super Redhawk in .480 Ruger
(shown with the 7 1/2" barrel)


DD
 
Old 07-08-2002, 02:18 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nemesis
I have never noticed the torque which you speak of but do not discount it. Could it be a byproduct of the specific ammo you use. I normally stick to homegrown 300 grain Sierra and Speer loads and have not noticed it. I do notice the unpleasant thump of the stub frame bottoming out in the stock rubber grips.
It was a while back, but I believe the loads were the Winchester 260gr Partition Gold @ 1,800fps.
 
Old 07-08-2002, 06:00 AM   #10
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Man, you guys are just gluttons for punishment! I'm always amazed at how much damage John Taffin has done to himself shooting those beasts (the revolvers, not the animals).

Does anyone know what kind of finish Ruger is using on those guns?
 
Old 07-08-2002, 07:52 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Berryhill
Does anyone know what kind of finish Ruger is using on those guns?
Ruger claims it is a natural result from the stainless alloy used. I suspect that it is helped along by a mild solution of ferric chloride, which reportedly gives similiar results on stainless steel.
 
Old 07-08-2002, 09:16 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Berryhill
Does anyone know what kind of finish Ruger is using on those guns?
Well, I suspect it is a Physical Vapor Deposition (PVD) of some sort. Ruger ain't saying exactly what though, as I contacted them (directly) a little over a year ago and was told it was a "proprietary" process. I am sort of curious about this finish, as not all PVDs are well suited to firearms applications, as many use too high of a temperature in their PVD process. I don't believe it is Boron Carbide, like what Bodycote is offering, and feel certain it is not Titanium Nitride either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D.E. Watters
Ruger claims it is a natural result from the stainless alloy used. I suspect that it is helped along by a mild solution of ferric chloride, which reportedly gives similiar results on stainless steel.
Just out of curiosity Mr. Watters, where did you read (or hear) about this claim by Ruger? I have a hard time believing that Ruger's "Target Gray" finish is simply a matter of alloy selection, or can be replicated with just an application of ferric chloride. Here is some interesting commentary from Hamilton Bowen on the subject:

"Which brings us to a few general observations about the new .480 and .454 Super Redhawks. There are two considerations to bear in mind when contemplating custom work on these guns. In our experience so far, it is nearly impossible to remove the barrels from these guns (at least the .454's). There is considerable evidence of thread galling/welding/melting which could just as easily occur in the receiver as the barrel. So, we are very reluctant at this writing to shorten barrels because they cannot be remove without the potential for receiver/barrel/finish damage. This means that we cannot recylinder the new .480 Super with a 5-shot part to accommodate both the .480 and the Linebaugh cartridge. All of our current .454 and .475 Super Redhawks are built on the .44 Super which has proven a dependable and trouble-free candidate for such work.

The other difficulty in working with the new-style Supers is the finish. We do not know quite what it is or how to match it which has considerably dampened our enthusiasm for working on the guns. About the only way to refinish them in the trenches is to bead blast off the battleship gray paint and apply a frosted matte finish. We will probably consider performing our basic 'Standard Issue' pkg. on these guns but only with the understanding that we cannot be responsible for the finish. While damage is extremely unlikely, it would entail a trip to the factory to repair."


DD
 
Old 07-08-2002, 09:49 AM   #13
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I'll see if Hamilton has any further comments on this. I'm taking a Single Action Ruger gunsmithing class from him the first week of Aug. That poor bastard - I've got so many questions for him his head is going to spin! :lol:
 
Old 07-08-2002, 08:02 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Dog
Just out of curiosity Mr. Watters, where did you read (or hear) about this claim by Ruger? I have a hard time believing that Ruger's "Target Gray" finish is simply a matter of alloy selection, or can be replicated with just an application of ferric chloride.
I'll need to do some digging in my 'archives', but I remember it from one of the early reviews. Of course, it could very well be wrong. :-?
 
Old 07-13-2002, 01:48 PM   #15
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As Dog said, they call it "Target Gray" and it seems to be another of the baked on miracle finishes. It's relatively tough, I have a M77 MkII VT with the same finish and it lasts.
 
Old 07-14-2002, 12:51 AM   #16
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John Taffin "Ruger Super Redhawk 454 Casull: Big Red Goes Really Big Bore" Handguns 2000 (1999: DBI Books)

Quote:
...Ruger uses a special tumbling process to give the 454 what they call a Target Grey finish. I thought it was a special coating but a call to Ruger confirmed that it is indeed stainless steel that has gone through a special process. (p. 94)
 
Old 07-14-2002, 06:46 PM   #17
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lefty o , I have Freedom Arms guns in both calibers, both identical 6" Premier Grade. It's hard to describe the difference in recoil. To me the 454 is a sharper recoil, but the 475 is heavier with top end loads. I notice it most when the 420gr loads get up above 1350fps. The difference can mostly be felt off a bench. If max loads in a 454 aren't a problem for you, the 475 won't take much getting used too. Buy one and have fun!!
 
Old 07-15-2002, 08:11 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D.E. Watters
John Taffin "Ruger Super Redhawk 454 Casull: Big Red Goes Really Big Bore" Handguns 2000 (1999: DBI Books)

Thank you for the cite and quote Mr. Watters. Interesting to contrast that, with Hamilton Bowen's remarks. Mr. Bowen's observation about the "considerable evidence of thread galling/welding/melting", has had me thinking about it (the 'finish') being a higher temp PVD process. Maybe Dave will add that to his list of questions he has lined up for his class with Mr. Bowen? Inquiring minds DO wanna know...


DD
 
Old 07-15-2002, 08:21 AM   #19
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I'm on it!
 
Old 09-07-2005, 03:22 PM   #20
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Deleted by moderator - consider yourself banned.
 
Old 09-07-2005, 04:06 PM   #21
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I imagine only seconds will pass before this thread is locked...... :-?
 
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