The Remington M-4 Carbine.

one eye joe · 04-24-2012, 03:44 PM

Remington has been awarded the military contract to build the new M-4 Carbine. They outbid Colt. I am saddened, being a Colt fan. We'll have to wait for feedback from the troops, to make a judgement.....http://kitup.military.com/2012/04/re...l?ESRC=army.nl

dfariswheel · 04-24-2012, 04:08 PM

Apparently what they got is a contract to build SOME M4 Carbines. This is apparently to see if they can meet the standards.

This is all rather strange since Remington doesn't actually manufacture any AR parts, they buy them from other suppliers.

Plus, for every M4 Carbine sold to the government by anyone, Colt gets a percentage.

one eye joe · 04-24-2012, 04:49 PM

The whole deal sounds very strange to me also, dfariswheel. Their AR type "R-15 450 Bushmaster" has me confused. Is it built in partnership with Bushmaster ? ? I'm glad Colt will get a piece of the pie. They stand to lose much revenue as a result of this move.

cohee · 04-25-2012, 03:25 AM

I can't believe that FN didn't get a piece of this action. I hope Remington gets it's act together and delivers a good product.

Did Colt get outbid on this or what?

one eye joe · 04-25-2012, 04:11 AM

Cohee, Remington DID outbid Colt. Given Colt's experience in building quality milspec ARs, and being already set up to do so, I find it difficult to believe that Remington could manufacture weapons of EQUAL quality for less money. Perhaps the Remington entrant barely meets the requirements, but is cheaper, whereas Colt exceeds the minimum specs but costs more. Being a cost-driven process, Remington won the bid. The troops deserve THE VERY BEST, and I sincerely hope that is what they get. Back in our day--Early problems with the M16 in the 'Nam were traced in part to the bean counters using a different powder in the ammo than what was designed for the weapon, because it was cheaper. Lives were lost due to resulting weapon malfunctions......

cohee · 04-25-2012, 05:58 AM

In 66 we were carrying first variant M-16s. A lot of troops carried an assembled cleaning rod to get the case out of the chamber when (not IF) it jammed.

I experienced owning a single shot musket a couple of times when the pucker factor was high and raised higher by having an inoperative weapon while being shot at.

These were the weapons issued to members of the 1st Cav while they were training at Ft.Benning. After nine months in country, the finish was worn off both metal and plastic stocks. Keeping them rust free took half an hour daily.

We also had a unit SOP of removing the chambered cartridge from the rifle and replacing it a couple of times daily. Some troops liked to squirt oil on the cartridges in a mag just before loading the mag. This was problematic when you really needed to change mags.

I hope the new Remington M-4s do the job. Although I can't help but wonder if the USMC is better off by keeping and improving the M-16.

one eye joe · 04-25-2012, 07:41 AM

Cohee, in 1968 I was fortunate enough to carry the M16A1 with the foward assist and the birdcage rather than the 3 prong flash suppressor. I had an issue cleaning kit, patches and LSA. I had a shaving brush, and a little comic book featuring a female character that stressed weapon maintenance. As much as possible, I tried to keep my my rifle and personal 1911 in a state of cleanliness and readiness. Luckily, I never had a weapon malfunction. In the earlier years, like during your time, malfunctions were the norm sadly. Some troops still carried the 3 prong model in 1968.

Alabaster · 04-25-2012, 09:13 AM

Very interesting. This whole thread is, I think. Thank you guys for your service.

I think that this could be a good thing. If Rem is making guns as good or better than what Colt's then I can't see and issue. If there is ANY sacrifice in quality, price is irrelevant. I wouldn't care if they only cost the govt $1 if it costs one of ours losing his life in combat. I do fear it in a sense, I guess. From the recent experiences I've had in the last 2 years with Rem, it causes concern. If their ammo and 1911 is any indication of what's in store with these rifles, then it's nothing short of frightening, I just hope and pray that the decision makers here had more in mind than their calculators.

one eye joe · 04-25-2012, 10:19 AM

Alabaster, I share your fears. Remington's ammo is my VERY LAST CHOICE if nothing else is on the shelf and I need it now. I have never owned a Remy but their bolt actions have enjoyed a good reputation through the years. Their M-24 Sniper Weapon System is allegedly the cat's ass (according to Remy, anyway). That's NOT a semi auto, however. Many manufacturers make one particular style of weapon really well, but a different style in their lineup sucks. I like SA revos and MK II Rugers, but I wouldn't buy a DA revo or another semi auto pistol from Ruger, just for example (none of the Rugers REALLY suck--there's just better choices out there) Since cost appears to be the driving force in awarding govt contracts, I suppose we should be glad that Taurus didn't field an entrant.....

cohee · 04-25-2012, 01:29 PM

Remington M-4 = $673 per unit to Uncle Sam.

one eye joe · 04-25-2012, 01:34 PM

Any idea what the Colt would cost, cohee ? ? ?

dfariswheel · 04-25-2012, 04:12 PM

Remington now owns Bushmaster, which is who will actually be making the parts. I don't know if they'll actually assemble the guns or if that will be done by Remington.

Best information on this is that this is more on the order of an experiment to see if Remington is capable of meeting specifications.
For each M4 the government buys not made by Colt, Colt gets a $5.00 fee so they aren't hurting.

In other words, it doesn't seem that Colt "lost the contract" and Colt isn't "in trouble now".

one eye joe · 04-25-2012, 04:49 PM

VERY interesting, dfariswheel. That explains the "R-15 450 Bushmaster" model. I actually feel better knowing that Bushmaster will be making the parts. I currently own a Bushmaster Varminter, and previously owned a Bull Pup. NEVER had an issue with either.....

dfariswheel · 04-26-2012, 03:14 PM

And to be really strange, the man who owned Bushmaster re-opened the company under another name and is producing AR rifles and carbines using all the old employees.

one eye joe · 04-26-2012, 03:58 PM

CAN'T get much stranger, dfariswheel......

Brian D. · 04-27-2012, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfariswheel

And to be really strange, the man who owned Bushmaster re-opened the company under another name and is producing AR rifles and carbines using all the old employees.

Maybe there's some sort of tax savings doing things that way?

dfariswheel · 04-27-2012, 05:37 PM

Word is, he sold out to Remington but missed the business and felt bad about all his loyal workers loosing their jobs.

He's making guns under the Windham Weaponry name.

one eye joe · 04-27-2012, 06:27 PM

Here's the whole story, dfariswheel. VERY interesting. This may drive the demand for / price of Bushmasters made in Windham, Me. up a bit.............Windham Weaponry Online - Windham Weaponry MPC Review by Grampa's Guns

26Inf · 05-16-2012, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by one eye joe

Back in our day--Early problems with the M16 in the 'Nam were traced in part to the bean counters using a different powder in the ammo than what was designed for the weapon, because it was cheaper. Lives were lost due to resulting weapon malfunctions......

I believe that they changed powders several times, but I've been led to believe that the root of the problem was that initially there wasn't an MILSPEC created for the rifle or the ammo, and that the cases were the problem - case material varied and would expand too much, too soon with both types of powder which were used.

I believe the initial contract for the AR's was more of a special purchase thing and that as the process of replacing the M-14 rolled forward they just kept extending the initial contracts - which had not yet created the 'MILSPEC'

I got that info from 'The Black Rifle: M16 Retrospective' so I'm just kind of regurgitating - probably incorrectly.

Wild Bill Caldwell · 05-16-2012, 09:06 AM

BUSHMASTER.....What Man could not dream of havein the title "Bushmaster"

Wild Bill

Alabaster · 05-16-2012, 11:34 AM

Word, Wild Bill. I know I would change my name if a woman ever called me "The Bushmaster"!!!!LOL

dfariswheel, that's some interesting info. I never knew that there was a link between Bushy and WW. I've always had good experiences with BM, like One Eye. Not a bad experience personally or thru my fam n friends. I HEAR of it, but I also hear that Obama's our President.....

I have seen and heard of far more issues with Remy's 700 than they'd like to have, I'm sure. I saw a show not so long ago about the same issue. Triggers being tuned or rifles being poorly maintained and releasing when the safety was snicked off. This is not just rumor in Alabaster's world. As far as their ammo and 1911 goes, forget about it. If I won one I'd sell it off asap. I'm with you on the ammo, especially. I would buy if there were literally NO OPTION, but I'll honestly skip a range day if that's it. I'll buy elsewhere and go another day- honest to goodness. If the BM quality extends thru Remy, good. For our troops' sake, primarily tho.

I hope WW get going, too. Especially since AR's seem to be the hot ticket these days. I've eyed their rifles, but was hoping to hear more of 'em before I recommend or buy one. This link is good news to 'ol Ali and crew.

04-24-2012, 03:44 PM	#1
one eye joe Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,079	The Remington M-4 Carbine. Remington has been awarded the military contract to build the new M-4 Carbine. They outbid Colt. I am saddened, being a Colt fan. We'll have to wait for feedback from the troops, to make a judgement.....http://kitup.military.com/2012/04/re...l?ESRC=army.nl

04-24-2012, 04:08 PM	#2
dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 1,424	Apparently what they got is a contract to build SOME M4 Carbines. This is apparently to see if they can meet the standards. This is all rather strange since Remington doesn't actually manufacture any AR parts, they buy them from other suppliers. Plus, for every M4 Carbine sold to the government by anyone, Colt gets a percentage. Last edited by dfariswheel; 04-24-2012 at 04:10 PM.

04-25-2012, 04:11 AM	#5
one eye joe Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,079	Cohee, Remington DID outbid Colt. Given Colt's experience in building quality milspec ARs, and being already set up to do so, I find it difficult to believe that Remington could manufacture weapons of EQUAL quality for less money. Perhaps the Remington entrant barely meets the requirements, but is cheaper, whereas Colt exceeds the minimum specs but costs more. Being a cost-driven process, Remington won the bid. The troops deserve THE VERY BEST, and I sincerely hope that is what they get. Back in our day--Early problems with the M16 in the 'Nam were traced in part to the bean counters using a different powder in the ammo than what was designed for the weapon, because it was cheaper. Lives were lost due to resulting weapon malfunctions...... Last edited by one eye joe; 04-25-2012 at 04:22 AM.

04-25-2012, 10:19 AM	#9
one eye joe Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,079	Alabaster, I share your fears. Remington's ammo is my VERY LAST CHOICE if nothing else is on the shelf and I need it now. I have never owned a Remy but their bolt actions have enjoyed a good reputation through the years. Their M-24 Sniper Weapon System is allegedly the cat's ass (according to Remy, anyway). That's NOT a semi auto, however. Many manufacturers make one particular style of weapon really well, but a different style in their lineup sucks. I like SA revos and MK II Rugers, but I wouldn't buy a DA revo or another semi auto pistol from Ruger, just for example (none of the Rugers REALLY suck--there's just better choices out there) Since cost appears to be the driving force in awarding govt contracts, I suppose we should be glad that Taurus didn't field an entrant..... Last edited by one eye joe; 04-25-2012 at 11:05 AM.

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04-24-2012, 04:49 PM	#3
one eye joe Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,079	The whole deal sounds very strange to me also, dfariswheel. Their AR type "R-15 450 Bushmaster" has me confused. Is it built in partnership with Bushmaster ? ? I'm glad Colt will get a piece of the pie. They stand to lose much revenue as a result of this move.

04-25-2012, 03:25 AM	#4
cohee Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Mid TN Posts: 323	I can't believe that FN didn't get a piece of this action. I hope Remington gets it's act together and delivers a good product. Did Colt get outbid on this or what?

04-25-2012, 05:58 AM	#6
cohee Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Mid TN Posts: 323	In 66 we were carrying first variant M-16s. A lot of troops carried an assembled cleaning rod to get the case out of the chamber when (not IF) it jammed. I experienced owning a single shot musket a couple of times when the pucker factor was high and raised higher by having an inoperative weapon while being shot at. These were the weapons issued to members of the 1st Cav while they were training at Ft.Benning. After nine months in country, the finish was worn off both metal and plastic stocks. Keeping them rust free took half an hour daily. We also had a unit SOP of removing the chambered cartridge from the rifle and replacing it a couple of times daily. Some troops liked to squirt oil on the cartridges in a mag just before loading the mag. This was problematic when you really needed to change mags. I hope the new Remington M-4s do the job. Although I can't help but wonder if the USMC is better off by keeping and improving the M-16.

04-25-2012, 07:41 AM	#7
one eye joe Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,079	Cohee, in 1968 I was fortunate enough to carry the M16A1 with the foward assist and the birdcage rather than the 3 prong flash suppressor. I had an issue cleaning kit, patches and LSA. I had a shaving brush, and a little comic book featuring a female character that stressed weapon maintenance. As much as possible, I tried to keep my my rifle and personal 1911 in a state of cleanliness and readiness. Luckily, I never had a weapon malfunction. In the earlier years, like during your time, malfunctions were the norm sadly. Some troops still carried the 3 prong model in 1968.

04-25-2012, 09:13 AM	#8
Alabaster Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: NOVA Posts: 370	Very interesting. This whole thread is, I think. Thank you guys for your service. I think that this could be a good thing. If Rem is making guns as good or better than what Colt's then I can't see and issue. If there is ANY sacrifice in quality, price is irrelevant. I wouldn't care if they only cost the govt $1 if it costs one of ours losing his life in combat. I do fear it in a sense, I guess. From the recent experiences I've had in the last 2 years with Rem, it causes concern. If their ammo and 1911 is any indication of what's in store with these rifles, then it's nothing short of frightening, I just hope and pray that the decision makers here had more in mind than their calculators.

04-25-2012, 01:29 PM	#10
cohee Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Mid TN Posts: 323	Remington M-4 = $673 per unit to Uncle Sam.

04-25-2012, 01:34 PM	#11
one eye joe Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,079	Any idea what the Colt would cost, cohee ? ? ?

04-25-2012, 04:12 PM	#12
dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 1,424	Remington now owns Bushmaster, which is who will actually be making the parts. I don't know if they'll actually assemble the guns or if that will be done by Remington. Best information on this is that this is more on the order of an experiment to see if Remington is capable of meeting specifications. For each M4 the government buys not made by Colt, Colt gets a $5.00 fee so they aren't hurting. In other words, it doesn't seem that Colt "lost the contract" and Colt isn't "in trouble now".

04-25-2012, 04:49 PM	#13
one eye joe Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,079	VERY interesting, dfariswheel. That explains the "R-15 450 Bushmaster" model. I actually feel better knowing that Bushmaster will be making the parts. I currently own a Bushmaster Varminter, and previously owned a Bull Pup. NEVER had an issue with either.....

04-26-2012, 03:14 PM	#14
dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 1,424	And to be really strange, the man who owned Bushmaster re-opened the company under another name and is producing AR rifles and carbines using all the old employees.

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04-26-2012, 03:58 PM	#15
one eye joe Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,079	CAN'T get much stranger, dfariswheel......

04-27-2012, 05:37 PM	#17
dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 1,424	Word is, he sold out to Remington but missed the business and felt bad about all his loyal workers loosing their jobs. He's making guns under the Windham Weaponry name.

04-27-2012, 06:27 PM	#18
one eye joe Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,079	Here's the whole story, dfariswheel. VERY interesting. This may drive the demand for / price of Bushmasters made in Windham, Me. up a bit.............Windham Weaponry Online - Windham Weaponry MPC Review by Grampa's Guns

05-16-2012, 09:06 AM	#20
Wild Bill Caldwell Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Louisiana Posts: 526	BUSHMASTER.....What Man could not dream of havein the title "Bushmaster" Wild Bill

05-16-2012, 11:34 AM	#21
Alabaster Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: NOVA Posts: 370	Word, Wild Bill. I know I would change my name if a woman ever called me "The Bushmaster"!!!!LOL dfariswheel, that's some interesting info. I never knew that there was a link between Bushy and WW. I've always had good experiences with BM, like One Eye. Not a bad experience personally or thru my fam n friends. I HEAR of it, but I also hear that Obama's our President..... I have seen and heard of far more issues with Remy's 700 than they'd like to have, I'm sure. I saw a show not so long ago about the same issue. Triggers being tuned or rifles being poorly maintained and releasing when the safety was snicked off. This is not just rumor in Alabaster's world. As far as their ammo and 1911 goes, forget about it. If I won one I'd sell it off asap. I'm with you on the ammo, especially. I would buy if there were literally NO OPTION, but I'll honestly skip a range day if that's it. I'll buy elsewhere and go another day- honest to goodness. If the BM quality extends thru Remy, good. For our troops' sake, primarily tho. I hope WW get going, too. Especially since AR's seem to be the hot ticket these days. I've eyed their rifles, but was hoping to hear more of 'em before I recommend or buy one. This link is good news to 'ol Ali and crew.