Up close and personal

Clay · 01-06-2002, 11:52 AM

This topic has been brought up elsewhere, but lets kick it around a bit.

Do you agree that most of your training should be under 7yds? What about 3yds?

What do you think about close range/contact distance fighting? Should a pistol remain in the holster when faced with an extremely close encounter? Is a knife better?

Is there a certain knife, gun, or other equipment that you prefer for close in work? What about sights?

What type of range drills do you incorporate into your training regimine?

95% of my current training is under 7yds, and dynamic in nature. Lots of one hand work, speed rock, and compressed weaver drills. Lots of advancing and sidestepping while shooting. I also like to use 3 dimensional targets, like 5 gallon buckets and boxes, which I put on a stick or a 2X4 about 5'-6' high.

I carry a Glock 23 with Ashley Big Dot sights, which I love. I also carry a Spyderco Delica on my weak side for retention drills, and a Livesay Woo or CRKT Companion fixed blade. I incorporate my knives into the range work.

pkf · 01-06-2002, 08:57 PM

Excellent question. I live in the city where homeless, college kids, wannabe mobsters, and non-descript career criminals can get up close and personal before you realistically can begin waving a gun. They're illegal in NY but I'm thinking about starting to carry a stun gun because I have far more violent "non-lethal" encounters than I do text book life threatening ones. I've carried for years and been the victim of muggings, brawls, robberies etc., and I haven't really had the chance to use my gun for different reasons. It's great for clearing the building I own or home protection etc., but there's alot of everyday violence where I'd be better off with mace, a stun gun, or Karate. Sad commentary on our society.

Jim Higginbotham · 01-06-2002, 10:07 PM

Quote:

On 2002-01-06 12:52, Clay wrote:
This topic has been brought up elsewhere, but lets kick it around a bit.
<snip>

I beleive that most of one's training should be done at 7 yards and under (anywher between 75-90%).

I have long felt that the theory that shooting at longer range for practice becuase "if you can hit at 25 you can hit at 5" was erroneous. Marksmanship at 25 yards is not more difficult than Marksmanship at 5 yards...it is just *different*. Mind you marksmanship includes Accuracy, Speed and the management of Power.

Probably it would be OK to practice mostly at 3 yards or less (and you certainly don't want to fail to do some practice from the retention position and other unusual positions) but I find that at less than 3 you start having logistic problems...like blowing up the target :sad:...makes for delays on the range, don't you know.

I have come to beleive that range practice is a sort of "mixed blessing" and can also cause serious hurdles to overcome if you don't put some real thought into your practice program and I now advocate that you move on nearly every presentation you do, either dry or live fire, and that you actually shoot on the move in at least half of your practice.

Just a thought,
Cordially,
Jim Higginbotham

Clay · 01-06-2002, 10:39 PM

Jim, thanks for helping set me on the road to dynamic shooting. No more stand and deliver for me :smile: .

I and probably most everyone else face the same problem of being above verbal commands but below shooting. I'm personally not a fan of pepper spray or stun guns, although impact weapons like a cane, ASP baton, or a WA-1 fight stick from Newt are really nice things to have in the toolchest.

Knives are really awesome weapons but society(read jury) looks down upon those using edged weapons, compared to the legal handgun-toting citizen. A person with a liscense to carry a handgun is legally better off using his handgun, even though a knife may be a better and safer choice for everyone.

http://www.newt.livesay.com

I'd like to be an instant master ninja, but this 'aint happening any time soon :grin: . I'm stuck slowly learning empty hand tactics as well as up close use of what may not be the best weapon, the pistol.

Shane1911 · 01-07-2002, 10:31 AM

I agree with Jim, above. The only concern I have is that use of sights is often overlooked at 7 yds. and closer. I believe that distance work (15 yds. plus) is just as important, as it forces you to use the sights. A newbie who does 90% of his practice at 3 yds. is never going to learn to use his sights properly.

Dane Burns · 01-07-2002, 11:18 AM

Quote:

but there's alot of everyday violence where I'd be better off with mace, a stun gun, or Karate

I would disagree here. I don't think any of those things work all that well at 3 yards and in. I know mace, pepper spray and stun guns don't. Karate? Depends on the practioner and his abilities. But sledom is karate put to good use in a street fight.

Handguns are IMO very limited at 3 yards. Without movement even less so. At inside 3 yards even more so. It should be clear that so many LEO are killed at that distance if for no other reason that they bring the gun to the fight and are often killed with their own gun while attempting to use it. There are other methods more appropriate IMO. Closing the distance is one. Combatives skills which incorporate the use of H2H skills and guns skills are the other. In a lethal encounter and with movement limited I would not always go to the handgun as my first option. Inside 3 yards almost never.

Quote:

A person with a liscense to carry a handgun is legally better off using his handgun, even though a knife may be a better and safer choice for everyone.

Again I would disagree. If you can justify the use of lethal force then I would suggest using the appropriate tool. If you cut someone you had better been able to shoot them and in the act of defending yourself or another innocent from death or great bodily harm. That is defensable in court.

The judicious use of lethal force and all it's facets is a serious and detailed subject. The basis for that study IMO is the ability to understand first when you can use force and then at what level it can be used. Easier written than understood fully I think.

[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2002-01-07 12:29 ]

Bruce · 01-07-2002, 12:42 PM

Agree with you Dane.

3 yards is 9 feet and a motivated person can move that distance quicker than most can draw and bring to use a gun or fixed blade knife...folders, forget it.

H2H training is not only wise, it should be mandatory with every person...even MORE so with those who carry a knife or gun with the intention of using the same for self defense.

Self Defense is a broad topic. When my friend Paul Vunak asked me to write a chapter for his most recent book I found that there is enough law out there to really need a book unto itself...and it is a book that I am not convinced has really been written yet, although several good attempts have been made. Understanding it is the key though, as you point out, and understanding it well enough to make the semi-second decisions is all the more important.

David Blinder · 01-07-2002, 12:51 PM

Guess I'll weigh in here with the adage, "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." We all would like to have every tool (skill set) at our disposal but in reality, that's simply not possible for most of us. I think moving off the line of attack (either closing or creating distance as dictated by the situation) is one of the most valuable tactics as the true object is to keep from getting harmed. I'm very big on people having practical unarmed skills (street fighting ability vs. dojo skills) as I think that more often than not, you'll need them even in situations where a gun, knife, ASP,etc., may be appropriate. At bad breath distance, you'll need the ability to counter an attack without having to rely on any tool other than your mind (#1 tool)and perhaps pure physical skills. In an overly verbose way, I suppose I'm saying that you should do most of your practice at close range but while they may provide the fait accompli, don't expect gun skills to be what saves your skin.

Clay · 01-07-2002, 03:31 PM

Good advice, all. Thank you.

Dane, I feel that a person is far better off, legally anyways, using a weapon he is licsensed to carry. Several states have no problems granting the right to carry a handgun, but practically outlaw edged weapons of any kind, same for impact weapons. Maybe I'm wrong, and I certainly aint gonna worry about such things in a fight, but the fact is the law, and the jurors, for the most part, have distinct and greatly differing opinions about weapons, even though they should be considered the same. Killing a guy with a knife or a gun or a brick should be the same - justifiable or unjustifiable, but it isn't. Just my opinion :smile: .

Dane Burns · 01-07-2002, 04:18 PM

Quote:

the fact is the law, and the jurors, for the most part, have distinct and greatly differing opinions about weapons

Actually from my experience, and any one else feel free to chime in here, is that the weapon has damn near ZERO to do with, first, how the case is investigated and then how the case is charged and finally how the law, judge or jury look at a self defense scenario and lethal force. If you were truly defending yourself or others innocents and not in a place you shouldn't have been, doing things that exaserbated the problems, the law in almost every state is pretty cut and dry. Either the use of lethal force is justified or it is not. In the 20 years I have been following such trends I would say there is a lot more of a chance the legal system will be even more generious in a self defense matters now than it would have been 10 years ago.

I would never suggest carrying an illegal weapon or using it for self defense. But a simple Clipit Delica isn't going to be considered a deadly weapon by many unless you do something really stupid with it.

Finally one of the things everyone should be able to do and be comfortable with is to articulate to and educate your jury at the level you are trainied by introduction of your instructors, training tapes and reading materials that form the basis of your lethal force decisions.

If you make good mental decisions and act accordingly the legal problems will be mute. Uncomfortable, yes, but harmful? Not really, but it will drain your pocket book. Screw it up and you'll be hating life.

[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2002-01-07 19:24 ]

David Blinder · 01-07-2002, 06:03 PM

When faced with a violent situation, we fight three battles. Winning the fight, staying out of jail, and staying out of the poor house. You must win the 1st or the other two don't matter but be aware that the more force used in winning the 1st, the greater your exposure is to #2 & #3.

Clay · 01-09-2002, 12:05 AM

Anyone know of any good books on hand-to-hand fighting?

Dane - WRITE A BOOK MAN! Everyone else has :grin: .

Dane Burns · 01-09-2002, 12:25 AM

Great idea Clay!

Published and copyrighted here first! It is a short book :grin:

1. Hit them first and more often.

2. Can't breathe, can't fight (for long)
Review #1 if you have questions.

3. Fighting is defined by distance.

4. Distance defines time and tool.

5. Mobility is your best asset. (hell to be old or fat worse yet to be both)

6. If you are loosing there are two choices, the Nike technique (run!) or get in close and negate their skills (usually).

7. If you are breathing at the end...you win...

This is the first of a series of self defense books.

Thanks go to Clay for being my ghost writer

[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2002-01-09 01:26 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Peter Loron on 2002-01-09 15:57 ]

Max1991A1 · 01-09-2002, 12:48 AM

It is frustrating to find myself being inexorably drawn into this conditioning where I stand and fire into a stationary target. This due simply to a lack of available alternatives for training at defense distances, moving while firing, multiple target acquisition, and so on. Most of the ranges don't even like you to practice double-taps.

I think I've done myself more good at home doing dry-fire practice than I have at the range. I've always been able to hit what I shoot at, and that is not likely to change in terms of target shooting, but I've never been to a facility where I could see what it is like to hit a target while moving, while the target is moving, clearing a house, etc.

Slammer · 01-09-2002, 01:24 AM

Dane,
Now That's the way to write a book. Use bullets (no pun intended)that can be remembered and not sermons on the proper extention of a ligament.
Most of you know Dick Marcinko's Rouge warrior series (If you don't,there a fun read). He has a few Commandments to remember,

#4. I shall punish thy bodies because the more thou bleedest in training the less thou bleedest in combat.
#7. Thou shall keep it simple stupid.
#8. Thou shalt never assume.
#9. Verily,thou art not paid for they methods,but for thy results, Which meaneth thou shalt kill thine enemy by any means available before he killeth you.
#10. Thou shalt,in thy Warrior's mind and soul,always remember my ultimate and final commandment.THERE ARE NO RULES-THOU SHALT WIN AT ALL COST.

For the rest buy the book, but I do like the straight forward approach.

Any of you trained in brazilian jujitsu and is it all that it's cracked up to be.

Dane Burns · 01-09-2002, 01:39 AM

Quote:

brazilian jujitsu, is it all that it's cracked up to be

yes, reread, #2

With this much brain damage it has to be simple so I can remeber it :grin:

David Blinder · 01-09-2002, 06:27 AM

Dane,

You are such a loser! You forgot the #1 rule of street fighting.

Always cheat -conducting yourself as a gentleman has nothing to do with a real fight.

Clay · 01-09-2002, 11:11 AM

Good point David.

"Always cheat - always win." -Clint Smith

Dane Burns · 01-09-2002, 11:54 AM

Actually I don't think your # 1 rule is all that is supposed.

To cheat would imply taking unfair advantage.
If we are talking human then we are all equal. I consider myself both fair and honest.

The dictionary defines "cheat" by fraud, swindle, dishonest, deceitful. If you have to think that way to win that is your problem.

Here is how it works for me. I want to be smarter than the other guy. If that doesn't work, bigger or even faster (Nike technique works fine too). But I don't consider being better at what I do as cheating. I just figure it is a better way to fight. Humans fight with their brain first if they intend to win. I intend to win.

Quote:

"Always cheat -conducting yourself as a gentleman has nothing to do with a real fight.

Quote:

"Always cheat - always win." -Clint Smith

Real fights start because one side of the discussion was so stupid that they didn't avoid it in the first place. Real fights aren't about being a gentleman, they are about out thinking the opponent from beginning to end. It that hasn't dawned on the practioner yet, I don't see a basic understanding of a human conflict at any level.

While I may be into "sound bites" try playing "always cheat, always win" in front of a jury.......I suspect it will in fact get your ass handed to you for the effort.

Not very smart IMO.

[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2002-01-09 14:19 ]

David Blinder · 01-09-2002, 01:02 PM

Dane,

Picky today, aren't we? Would you feel better if I said be totally ruthless? By that, I mean to use whatever skills (physical or mental) at your disposal in order to win the battle. I assume since the situation has already degraded into physical confrontation, all methods of disengagement have been exhausted. The point was that in a fork fight, you do whatever is needed. The only fight you're guaranteed of winning is the one you avoid but if you can't get out of it, you better be willing to do whatever it takes to come out on top.

Shane1911 · 01-09-2002, 01:10 PM

Quote:

On 2002-01-09 14:02, David Blinder wrote:
The point was that in a fork fight, you do whatever is needed.

Note to self - do not accept any dinner invitations with Blinder. :grin:

David Blinder · 01-09-2002, 01:27 PM

Shane, you have nothing to fear from me. On the other hand, if you dine with the Grand Poohbah (Dane), I'd advise wearing a FIST suit as he's likely to wrestle you over a drumstick.

Dane Burns · 01-09-2002, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Would you feel better if I said be totally ruthless?

Ruthless? As in without pity or compassion. Yes, David that I might find acceptable. But then if I were ruthless I would use lethal force on everyone that annoyed me. So I quess not by definition. Totally? As in whole or complete? No. A good fighter and smart man knows when to turn it up a notch and when to turn it down two or three.

example:
The techniques I might use are always a combination of things. The first will usually get the job done from my own experiences. But the combinations are there to solve the problem if things don't go as planned. But I have yet to be totally ruthless in the application of lethal or even physical force. I am still here to talk about it.

So no I am not totally ruthless. (some might disagree with my pricing

Nor do I cheat to win.

A smart man thinks while he fights.

Now Blinder can I go back to working on your gun? :grin:

[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2002-01-09 14:35 ]

David Blinder · 01-09-2002, 02:27 PM

Poohbah, if you've enjoyed needling me half as much as I've enjoyed harrasing you, then I've enjoyed it twice as much as you. Now you can go back to finishing the Lorcin.

Clay · 01-09-2002, 03:10 PM

Egads Dane, taking things a bit on edge today?

I think what was meant was do whatever it takes in order to win.

Cheers,
Clay

Dane Burns · 01-09-2002, 03:36 PM

Quote:

I think what was meant was do whatever it takes in order to win.

I knew what David's meaning was and I suspect yours too Clay.

Just don't agree with the sematics used be it yours or Clint's.

I am not a big one for sound bites.
But I think I made that point :grin:

Take the quote: "I do whatever it takes in order to win". Now play that in front of a jury.

In a physical context I will not do "anything" to win. So I do not use that phrase in class while teaching nor do I agree with it here or in this context.

Am I capable of totally ruthless behavior? Yes. Will I use every advantage to win? Yes.

Will I cheat to win or be totally ruthless in battle? No.

That is not being edgy, just honest. Of course I am neddling both of you but not without good cause :grin:

In this case I am just torturing you both needlessly but not yet in a totally ruthless manner :roll:

[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2002-01-09 16:37 ]

David Blinder · 01-09-2002, 03:45 PM

Would you PLEASE get back to work on that Jennings and quit picking on me. You know how sensitive and timid I am.

01-09-2002, 12:25 AM	#13
Dane Burns Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Issaquah, WA Posts: 3,830	Great idea Clay! Published and copyrighted here first! It is a short book :grin: 1. Hit them first and more often. 2. Can't breathe, can't fight (for long) Review #1 if you have questions. 3. Fighting is defined by distance. 4. Distance defines time and tool. 5. Mobility is your best asset. (hell to be old or fat worse yet to be both) 6. If you are loosing there are two choices, the Nike technique (run!) or get in close and negate their skills (usually). 7. If you are breathing at the end...you win... This is the first of a series of self defense books. Thanks go to Clay for being my ghost writer <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2002-01-09 01:26 ]</font> <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Peter Loron on 2002-01-09 15:57 ]</font>

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01-06-2002, 11:52 AM	#1
Clay Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 420	This topic has been brought up elsewhere, but lets kick it around a bit. Do you agree that most of your training should be under 7yds? What about 3yds? What do you think about close range/contact distance fighting? Should a pistol remain in the holster when faced with an extremely close encounter? Is a knife better? Is there a certain knife, gun, or other equipment that you prefer for close in work? What about sights? What type of range drills do you incorporate into your training regimine? 95% of my current training is under 7yds, and dynamic in nature. Lots of one hand work, speed rock, and compressed weaver drills. Lots of advancing and sidestepping while shooting. I also like to use 3 dimensional targets, like 5 gallon buckets and boxes, which I put on a stick or a 2X4 about 5'-6' high. I carry a Glock 23 with Ashley Big Dot sights, which I love. I also carry a Spyderco Delica on my weak side for retention drills, and a Livesay Woo or CRKT Companion fixed blade. I incorporate my knives into the range work.

01-06-2002, 08:57 PM	#2
pkf Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 49	Excellent question. I live in the city where homeless, college kids, wannabe mobsters, and non-descript career criminals can get up close and personal before you realistically can begin waving a gun. They're illegal in NY but I'm thinking about starting to carry a stun gun because I have far more violent "non-lethal" encounters than I do text book life threatening ones. I've carried for years and been the victim of muggings, brawls, robberies etc., and I haven't really had the chance to use my gun for different reasons. It's great for clearing the building I own or home protection etc., but there's alot of everyday violence where I'd be better off with mace, a stun gun, or Karate. Sad commentary on our society.

01-06-2002, 10:39 PM	#4
Clay Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 420	Jim, thanks for helping set me on the road to dynamic shooting. No more stand and deliver for me :smile: . I and probably most everyone else face the same problem of being above verbal commands but below shooting. I'm personally not a fan of pepper spray or stun guns, although impact weapons like a cane, ASP baton, or a WA-1 fight stick from Newt are really nice things to have in the toolchest. Knives are really awesome weapons but society(read jury) looks down upon those using edged weapons, compared to the legal handgun-toting citizen. A person with a liscense to carry a handgun is legally better off using his handgun, even though a knife may be a better and safer choice for everyone. http://www.newt.livesay.com I'd like to be an instant master ninja, but this 'aint happening any time soon :grin: . I'm stuck slowly learning empty hand tactics as well as up close use of what may not be the best weapon, the pistol.

01-07-2002, 10:31 AM	#5
Shane1911 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 1,610	I agree with Jim, above. The only concern I have is that use of sights is often overlooked at 7 yds. and closer. I believe that distance work (15 yds. plus) is just as important, as it forces you to use the sights. A newbie who does 90% of his practice at 3 yds. is never going to learn to use his sights properly.

01-07-2002, 12:42 PM	#7
Bruce Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 988	Agree with you Dane. 3 yards is 9 feet and a motivated person can move that distance quicker than most can draw and bring to use a gun or fixed blade knife...folders, forget it. H2H training is not only wise, it should be mandatory with every person...even MORE so with those who carry a knife or gun with the intention of using the same for self defense. Self Defense is a broad topic. When my friend Paul Vunak asked me to write a chapter for his most recent book I found that there is enough law out there to really need a book unto itself...and it is a book that I am not convinced has really been written yet, although several good attempts have been made. Understanding it is the key though, as you point out, and understanding it well enough to make the semi-second decisions is all the more important.

01-07-2002, 12:51 PM	#8
David Blinder Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 297	Guess I'll weigh in here with the adage, "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." We all would like to have every tool (skill set) at our disposal but in reality, that's simply not possible for most of us. I think moving off the line of attack (either closing or creating distance as dictated by the situation) is one of the most valuable tactics as the true object is to keep from getting harmed. I'm very big on people having practical unarmed skills (street fighting ability vs. dojo skills) as I think that more often than not, you'll need them even in situations where a gun, knife, ASP,etc., may be appropriate. At bad breath distance, you'll need the ability to counter an attack without having to rely on any tool other than your mind (#1 tool)and perhaps pure physical skills. In an overly verbose way, I suppose I'm saying that you should do most of your practice at close range but while they may provide the fait accompli, don't expect gun skills to be what saves your skin.

01-07-2002, 03:31 PM	#9
Clay Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 420	Good advice, all. Thank you. Dane, I feel that a person is far better off, legally anyways, using a weapon he is licsensed to carry. Several states have no problems granting the right to carry a handgun, but practically outlaw edged weapons of any kind, same for impact weapons. Maybe I'm wrong, and I certainly aint gonna worry about such things in a fight, but the fact is the law, and the jurors, for the most part, have distinct and greatly differing opinions about weapons, even though they should be considered the same. Killing a guy with a knife or a gun or a brick should be the same - justifiable or unjustifiable, but it isn't. Just my opinion :smile: .

01-07-2002, 06:03 PM	#11
David Blinder Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 297	When faced with a violent situation, we fight three battles. Winning the fight, staying out of jail, and staying out of the poor house. You must win the 1st or the other two don't matter but be aware that the more force used in winning the 1st, the greater your exposure is to #2 & #3.

01-09-2002, 12:05 AM	#12
Clay Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 420	Anyone know of any good books on hand-to-hand fighting? Dane - WRITE A BOOK MAN! Everyone else has :grin: .

01-09-2002, 12:48 AM	#14
Max1991A1 Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Kalifornica Posts: 49	It is frustrating to find myself being inexorably drawn into this conditioning where I stand and fire into a stationary target. This due simply to a lack of available alternatives for training at defense distances, moving while firing, multiple target acquisition, and so on. Most of the ranges don't even like you to practice double-taps. I think I've done myself more good at home doing dry-fire practice than I have at the range. I've always been able to hit what I shoot at, and that is not likely to change in terms of target shooting, but I've never been to a facility where I could see what it is like to hit a target while moving, while the target is moving, clearing a house, etc.

01-09-2002, 01:24 AM	#15
Slammer Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Seattle WA. Posts: 58	Dane, Now That's the way to write a book. Use bullets (no pun intended)that can be remembered and not sermons on the proper extention of a ligament. Most of you know Dick Marcinko's Rouge warrior series (If you don't,there a fun read). He has a few Commandments to remember, #4. I shall punish thy bodies because the more thou bleedest in training the less thou bleedest in combat. #7. Thou shall keep it simple stupid. #8. Thou shalt never assume. #9. Verily,thou art not paid for they methods,but for thy results, Which meaneth thou shalt kill thine enemy by any means available before he killeth you. #10. Thou shalt,in thy Warrior's mind and soul,always remember my ultimate and final commandment.THERE ARE NO RULES-THOU SHALT WIN AT ALL COST. For the rest buy the book, but I do like the straight forward approach. Any of you trained in brazilian jujitsu and is it all that it's cracked up to be.

01-09-2002, 06:27 AM	#17
David Blinder Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 297	Dane, You are such a loser! You forgot the #1 rule of street fighting. Always cheat -conducting yourself as a gentleman has nothing to do with a real fight.

01-09-2002, 11:11 AM	#18
Clay Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 420	Good point David. "Always cheat - always win." -Clint Smith

01-09-2002, 01:02 PM	#20
David Blinder Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 297	Dane, Picky today, aren't we? Would you feel better if I said be totally ruthless? By that, I mean to use whatever skills (physical or mental) at your disposal in order to win the battle. I assume since the situation has already degraded into physical confrontation, all methods of disengagement have been exhausted. The point was that in a fork fight, you do whatever is needed. The only fight you're guaranteed of winning is the one you avoid but if you can't get out of it, you better be willing to do whatever it takes to come out on top.

01-09-2002, 01:27 PM	#22
David Blinder Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 297	Shane, you have nothing to fear from me. On the other hand, if you dine with the Grand Poohbah (Dane), I'd advise wearing a FIST suit as he's likely to wrestle you over a drumstick.

01-09-2002, 02:27 PM	#24
David Blinder Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 297	Poohbah, if you've enjoyed needling me half as much as I've enjoyed harrasing you, then I've enjoyed it twice as much as you. Now you can go back to finishing the Lorcin.

01-09-2002, 03:10 PM	#25
Clay Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 420	Egads Dane, taking things a bit on edge today? I think what was meant was do whatever it takes in order to win. Cheers, Clay

01-09-2002, 03:45 PM	#27
David Blinder Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 297	Would you PLEASE get back to work on that Jennings and quit picking on me. You know how sensitive and timid I am.