How much practice?

RickB · 10-13-2003, 11:24 AM

I've always marveled at the commitment of shooters who fire hundreds or thousands of practice rounds every week, to improve their skill and reach the peak of their abilities. I'm sure I've read of shooters firing 25,000-50,000 rounds per year, for years, when they were "into IPSC". I average 150-200 rounds a week, all in competition, with no real time for "practice" in between matches, and I'm clawing my way to A class, one tenth at a time. I've witnessed a shooting buddy (who another shooting buddy and I introduced to IPSC, maybe two years ago) shoot two 100% classifiers in the last two weeks, and I bet this guy hasn't fired 50,000 rounds in his life. He needed an extra shot yesterday, and still seems to have beaten the old 100% HHF by two tenths; is the guy a prodigy? Are there still people shooting tens of thousands of rounds, in order to do what seems to come almost naturally, for this guy? Are videos and other training aids making the learning curve that much flatter than for the guys who were blazing trails in the '70s and '80s?

David Winkler · 10-14-2003, 05:09 AM

Yes, there were those of us who fired lots of rounds in practice. I started shooting IPSC in 1978 and every year there after, thru 1986 fired a minimum of 50K rounds in practice, not counting the rounds in matches. In '83 and '84 it was more like 75k a year.

You are correct that the resources are avaliable to make the same gains now without shooting all those rounds. When I was learning the sport, Al Gore had not yet invented the internet, so no forums like this one and others were avaliable. Unless you were part of the Super Squad at the Nationals, you didn't have a clue how they were practicing or learning to do what they did. Pretty much hit and miss. You could not call and get a lesson from the Big Dawgs, everyone was kind of in the same boat, and if you found something that worked for you, you certainly kept it a secret from your shooting competitors, so there was no flow of information like there is now.

Also, while there were classifications at the local clubs there was no National classification mechanism, and we all shot heads up at the big matches like the Nationals and the World. While I am sure there are lots of people who disagree, I think it was better that way. Separated the wheat from the chaff in a hurry, and who wants to brag about being National C class Open champ? Certiainly not me.

And what about all the gun divisions now? When I did it big time, you paid your $$ and took your chances. You could shoot anything you could find a holster for and drag to the line, but if you showed up with a box gun, you could prepare to have your hat handed to you at the end of the match.

Like anthing, IPSC/USPSA is a long way from perfect. There are easy and hard classifiers. You did not say what gun division your 100% bud is shooting, if it is Open or L10 or Production, what. Also, remember that a blind squirrel can find an acorn sometimes... The way it works, is that if you are already classified as a B shooter and shoot two classifiers at over 100%, Sedro will flag them and not count them into the mix to move you up. something about that blind squirrel again.

Give you one of the best examples I know. The El Presidente is a drill that has been shot since the beginning if IPSC and when I started the par time was 10 seconds to turn, shoot 6 reload and shoot 6 more. I watched a video of a 17 year old kid shoot this same drill in 3.96 about two months ago. Pretty common for M and GM shooters to shoot it in the low 4's, with their Open blaster and well under 5 sec with the L10 blaster.

Is it easier now than 25 yrs ago, well I don't know about that, but bear this in mind. It doesn't really matter what it says on your classification card from IPSC, it can say D or GM. Nor does it matter how many classifiers you can shoot which score nationally at over 100%. What does matter is if you can do the same thing on Race Day as you can in practice, under the additional pressure of shooting against guys like Leatham, Jarrett, Graufel, Strader, Barnhart, and a few others. None of these guys are going to be impressed that you shot over 100% on a couple of classifiers. Leatham alone has over 15 World and National championships to his credit.

Are people still shooting lots of rounds in practice, well compare that John Shaw won the Steel Challenge, long ago, and put in about 40k rounds that year and over 4k rounds practicing for the Challenge. When Jeffro Dionesio won it his second time, he shot over 40k rounds just the month B4 the match practicing for it. You be the judge.

RickB · 10-14-2003, 07:46 AM

My post did leave a lot of room for questions; my friend is a Master, might make GM tomorrow, if Sedro gets the paperwork. He shoots Limited. He doesn't have a lot of match experience, since he's been shooting for a relatively short time, but he finished top-twenty at Nationals, so it's not like a couple of lucky classifier runs is all he has on his shooting resume. I've witnessed one four-second El Prez, and was duly impressed, since I have a hard time breaking seven seconds! As you point out, if I stepped to the line in 1978, with my stock-looking single stack and carry gear, and shot a seven-second El Prez, onlookers might have been impressed with that. The bar keeps getting higher, but it also seems that there are more people able to reach it.

David Winkler · 10-14-2003, 12:22 PM

Rick

When I was on my game, after all those tens of thousands of rounds, I could pretty well by doing some dry fire and limit my range time with live fire and do very well in matches. This has also been conveyed to me my several GM shooters, who now shoot.

I think the main reason for the rapid advancement of current shooters are the resources now avaliable which were not "out there" when I started. You have videos of GM's shooting matches which tell you how to diagnois a stage, etc. Look at Matt Burkett's site and he has tips on gear, stages, motion, grip/stance, on and on. I won't say that the 1911 has reached the final evolution, but we did fight the equipment wars back then when nearly month there was a new innovation which you needed to explore, then possibly incorporate into your program. I tried self hypnosis, a tip from John Shaw in '81, aside from the equipment race.

The competition is lots better now than then, due to equipment, training methods and good classes/personal coaching, which are avaliable from TGO, and others now. I believe that IF you have all the skills needed, the vast number of live fire rounds we shot then are not needed. However the number of rounds needed to get you to that point are dependent on personal apptitude, coaching, focus, determination, and money. From that point on it is mental more than anything. I personally believe that Brian Enos has made more progress in that area, both understanding what is needed, and conveying that knowledge to current shooters than anyone in the game, past or present.

Your bud sounds like he may have the goods to challenge the Big Dawgs sometime soon. You did not say how old he is, so I hope he is in his late teens or early twenties, because if he is older than that, time is not on his side. Not to down play his accomplishments, but there is a BIG difference in the top 20 and the top 5. Same here as with golf, you have to learn how to win at that level. Contending to win means being in contention on the last day with a realistic chance to win, not finishing in the top 20. Wish him well for me cause Robbie, Todd and Jerry are at the end of their runs. It could be his turn.

Kyle Farris · 12-17-2003, 10:38 PM

I think DW (Mr. Sunshine) has hit on a most valid point...

The resources are now out there that really shorten the learning curve.

RickB, ask your buddy where he learned a lot of his tricks. (Is your buddy Tom D.?)

TDean · 12-22-2003, 11:03 AM

Practicing's overrated :lol:
I think that the art of getting in tune with your gun (live fire) can be learned in a few thousand rds. The part of shooting where the bullet leaves the barrel is a small part of the skills need to do well in IPSC. Keeping your sights on target when that happens is the trick, and I feel that I can accomplish that dry-firing at home (mini targets on the wall).
Practicing isn't the cure-all. What if you have a bad habit? Every time you shoot 200rds in a practice session you just ingrain the bad technique.
There's nothing wrong with live-fire practice, but let it be quality.

Quote:

You did not say how old he is, so I hope he is in his late teens or early twenties, because if he is older than that, time is not on his side. Not to down play his accomplishments, but there is a BIG difference in the top 20 and the top 5. Same here as with golf, you have to learn how to win at that level. Contending to win means being in contention on the last day with a realistic chance to win, not finishing in the top 20. Wish him well for me cause Robbie, Todd and Jerry are at the end of their runs. It could be his turn.

That's a very interesting point David. I wonder what the needed time is to perform MENTALLY at the top-5 level? The Physical stuff is easy, and as far as I'm concerned it's the mental game that seperates most top 20 shooters from the top 5.

Talent being equal, it seems a guy who's been shooting for 20 years certainly has an advantage over a guy who's been shooting for 3. Although with some sports, a rookie can raise the bar against the veterans....no?

Is it cumulative match experience that makes a veteran shoot well, or is it his maturity level at his current age. What if a guy's been involved in competitive sports his whole life, but has only been competitive with a gun for a few years. Do those life-learned competitive instincts transition over to IPSC?

good stuff...

David Winkler · 12-22-2003, 05:21 PM

Tom

I agree completely. I think mental toughness is a learned process, regardless of age. Just because you have many years of competition under your belt does not in any way mean or imply that you are mentally tough. Normally, the method of gaining mental toughness is to put yourself in the position to win/loose, and based on the ultimate outcome, either congratulate yourself and finetune what you did in that situation, or take a good long look at why you failed and adjust your mental game.

A top 20 finish is certainly to be commended but the guy who ends up 20th, knows for certain that he will not win the whole thing, long B4 it is over. The top 5 finisher most times has an outside shot at winning. Really competitive people sometimes can find a way to win, and yes, I think competition from other sports or competitive events can transition to shooting if the practitioner is savvy enough and mentally skillful enough to put that experience to work in the shooting arena.

Another item to consider is the one shot wonder. He won once but cannot do it again. Is it lack of mental toughness or lack of ability, or is it far more simple than that; maybe a blind hog just found an acorn...once.

RickB · 12-31-2003, 12:24 PM

OK, the truth is out; Tom D. is the shooter to whom I was referring. I didn't want to embarrass him with a lot of oohs and ahhs over his performances. The guy can shoot. Good drinkin' buddy, too.

10-13-2003, 11:24 AM	#1
RickB Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 322	How much practice? I've always marveled at the commitment of shooters who fire hundreds or thousands of practice rounds every week, to improve their skill and reach the peak of their abilities. I'm sure I've read of shooters firing 25,000-50,000 rounds per year, for years, when they were "into IPSC". I average 150-200 rounds a week, all in competition, with no real time for "practice" in between matches, and I'm clawing my way to A class, one tenth at a time. I've witnessed a shooting buddy (who another shooting buddy and I introduced to IPSC, maybe two years ago) shoot two 100% classifiers in the last two weeks, and I bet this guy hasn't fired 50,000 rounds in his life. He needed an extra shot yesterday, and still seems to have beaten the old 100% HHF by two tenths; is the guy a prodigy? Are there still people shooting tens of thousands of rounds, in order to do what seems to come almost naturally, for this guy? Are videos and other training aids making the learning curve that much flatter than for the guys who were blazing trails in the '70s and '80s?

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10-14-2003, 05:09 AM	#2
David Winkler Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 251	Yes, there were those of us who fired lots of rounds in practice. I started shooting IPSC in 1978 and every year there after, thru 1986 fired a minimum of 50K rounds in practice, not counting the rounds in matches. In '83 and '84 it was more like 75k a year. You are correct that the resources are avaliable to make the same gains now without shooting all those rounds. When I was learning the sport, Al Gore had not yet invented the internet, so no forums like this one and others were avaliable. Unless you were part of the Super Squad at the Nationals, you didn't have a clue how they were practicing or learning to do what they did. Pretty much hit and miss. You could not call and get a lesson from the Big Dawgs, everyone was kind of in the same boat, and if you found something that worked for you, you certainly kept it a secret from your shooting competitors, so there was no flow of information like there is now. Also, while there were classifications at the local clubs there was no National classification mechanism, and we all shot heads up at the big matches like the Nationals and the World. While I am sure there are lots of people who disagree, I think it was better that way. Separated the wheat from the chaff in a hurry, and who wants to brag about being National C class Open champ? Certiainly not me. And what about all the gun divisions now? When I did it big time, you paid your $$ and took your chances. You could shoot anything you could find a holster for and drag to the line, but if you showed up with a box gun, you could prepare to have your hat handed to you at the end of the match. Like anthing, IPSC/USPSA is a long way from perfect. There are easy and hard classifiers. You did not say what gun division your 100% bud is shooting, if it is Open or L10 or Production, what. Also, remember that a blind squirrel can find an acorn sometimes... The way it works, is that if you are already classified as a B shooter and shoot two classifiers at over 100%, Sedro will flag them and not count them into the mix to move you up. something about that blind squirrel again. Give you one of the best examples I know. The El Presidente is a drill that has been shot since the beginning if IPSC and when I started the par time was 10 seconds to turn, shoot 6 reload and shoot 6 more. I watched a video of a 17 year old kid shoot this same drill in 3.96 about two months ago. Pretty common for M and GM shooters to shoot it in the low 4's, with their Open blaster and well under 5 sec with the L10 blaster. Is it easier now than 25 yrs ago, well I don't know about that, but bear this in mind. It doesn't really matter what it says on your classification card from IPSC, it can say D or GM. Nor does it matter how many classifiers you can shoot which score nationally at over 100%. What does matter is if you can do the same thing on Race Day as you can in practice, under the additional pressure of shooting against guys like Leatham, Jarrett, Graufel, Strader, Barnhart, and a few others. None of these guys are going to be impressed that you shot over 100% on a couple of classifiers. Leatham alone has over 15 World and National championships to his credit. Are people still shooting lots of rounds in practice, well compare that John Shaw won the Steel Challenge, long ago, and put in about 40k rounds that year and over 4k rounds practicing for the Challenge. When Jeffro Dionesio won it his second time, he shot over 40k rounds just the month B4 the match practicing for it. You be the judge.

10-14-2003, 07:46 AM	#3
RickB Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 322	My post did leave a lot of room for questions; my friend is a Master, might make GM tomorrow, if Sedro gets the paperwork. He shoots Limited. He doesn't have a lot of match experience, since he's been shooting for a relatively short time, but he finished top-twenty at Nationals, so it's not like a couple of lucky classifier runs is all he has on his shooting resume. I've witnessed one four-second El Prez, and was duly impressed, since I have a hard time breaking seven seconds! As you point out, if I stepped to the line in 1978, with my stock-looking single stack and carry gear, and shot a seven-second El Prez, onlookers might have been impressed with that. The bar keeps getting higher, but it also seems that there are more people able to reach it.

10-14-2003, 12:22 PM	#4
David Winkler Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 251	Rick When I was on my game, after all those tens of thousands of rounds, I could pretty well by doing some dry fire and limit my range time with live fire and do very well in matches. This has also been conveyed to me my several GM shooters, who now shoot. I think the main reason for the rapid advancement of current shooters are the resources now avaliable which were not "out there" when I started. You have videos of GM's shooting matches which tell you how to diagnois a stage, etc. Look at Matt Burkett's site and he has tips on gear, stages, motion, grip/stance, on and on. I won't say that the 1911 has reached the final evolution, but we did fight the equipment wars back then when nearly month there was a new innovation which you needed to explore, then possibly incorporate into your program. I tried self hypnosis, a tip from John Shaw in '81, aside from the equipment race. The competition is lots better now than then, due to equipment, training methods and good classes/personal coaching, which are avaliable from TGO, and others now. I believe that IF you have all the skills needed, the vast number of live fire rounds we shot then are not needed. However the number of rounds needed to get you to that point are dependent on personal apptitude, coaching, focus, determination, and money. From that point on it is mental more than anything. I personally believe that Brian Enos has made more progress in that area, both understanding what is needed, and conveying that knowledge to current shooters than anyone in the game, past or present. Your bud sounds like he may have the goods to challenge the Big Dawgs sometime soon. You did not say how old he is, so I hope he is in his late teens or early twenties, because if he is older than that, time is not on his side. Not to down play his accomplishments, but there is a BIG difference in the top 20 and the top 5. Same here as with golf, you have to learn how to win at that level. Contending to win means being in contention on the last day with a realistic chance to win, not finishing in the top 20. Wish him well for me cause Robbie, Todd and Jerry are at the end of their runs. It could be his turn.

12-17-2003, 10:38 PM	#5
Kyle Farris Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Ohio (Columbus, McConnelsville) Posts: 272	I think DW (Mr. Sunshine) has hit on a most valid point... The resources are now out there that really shorten the learning curve. RickB, ask your buddy where he learned a lot of his tricks. (Is your buddy Tom D.?)

12-22-2003, 05:21 PM	#7
David Winkler Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 251	Tom I agree completely. I think mental toughness is a learned process, regardless of age. Just because you have many years of competition under your belt does not in any way mean or imply that you are mentally tough. Normally, the method of gaining mental toughness is to put yourself in the position to win/loose, and based on the ultimate outcome, either congratulate yourself and finetune what you did in that situation, or take a good long look at why you failed and adjust your mental game. A top 20 finish is certainly to be commended but the guy who ends up 20th, knows for certain that he will not win the whole thing, long B4 it is over. The top 5 finisher most times has an outside shot at winning. Really competitive people sometimes can find a way to win, and yes, I think competition from other sports or competitive events can transition to shooting if the practitioner is savvy enough and mentally skillful enough to put that experience to work in the shooting arena. Another item to consider is the one shot wonder. He won once but cannot do it again. Is it lack of mental toughness or lack of ability, or is it far more simple than that; maybe a blind hog just found an acorn...once.

12-31-2003, 12:24 PM	#8
RickB Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 322	OK, the truth is out; Tom D. is the shooter to whom I was referring. I didn't want to embarrass him with a lot of oohs and ahhs over his performances. The guy can shoot. Good drinkin' buddy, too.