IPSC

Hello everyone. New to the forum. Not sure if this is the correct sub-forum....so.....

I have a Beretta model 76, 22LR target pistol. It shows partial-case bulging just ahead of the rim, for about 40-60 degrees of circumference. I've established that the bulge is located just where the feed ramp enters the chamber. Thought that maybe a previous owner went crazy and over-Dremeled this area...leading to no case-support in that region. What I found instead is that all Beretta 22's seem to be built this way....BUT...mine shows case bulging and the others do not. I am 100% certain that there is NO OOB ( out-of-battery) firing....the slide is completely closed.

Kinda long...but here is what I already posted on the Beretta forum, with numbers and pictures--->

Beretta 76 - bulged, extracted cases - Beretta Forum

Question....if stronger springs don't solve this ( concept...delay the opening of the slide, maybe bulging won't occur as much)..... can this be "fixed" with application of silver solder...brazing....or maybe even delicate TIG welding by someone who really knows what they're doing? ...in the 6 o'clock position of the chamber?

New barrels are impossible to find......

George M.

Any attempt to adjust the spring force to delay the action opening is going to drastically affect timing to the point it probably won't cycle. Any metal replacement will ruin the temper/hardness/strength of the barrel. My only solution would be to re-line the barrel. Not difficult, nor really expensive. the parts are available from Brownells. If you want to tackle it yourself, the Brownells staff will give pointers, maybe even a printed how-to. If not, you can probably find a local gunsmith who will do it for a nominal fee. George M.

IPSC

I understand that (say) TIG welding... any welding...melts the host material and therefore can alter the heat-treatment of the host material. However, other approaches such as brazing, as an example, adds material ( doesn't melt the host material), and is of a much lower operating temperature. What about that option?...I mention all options are open for discussion. Just a thought.

As for "local" gunsmiths......those are few and far between nowadays....the people I find locally I would kindly call butchers, blacksmiths, or hackers.....

retDAC

What does Beretta Customer Service say about it?

IPSC

The model 76 is long out of print and Beretta is totally at arms length. Look at the Beretta-USA website and you can see they even farmed out the parts business to Brownells and others.

Forget-about-it....a nonstarter.......gun is too old for them to care.

George M.

Brazing melts BOTH metals. Too hot for the heat treat. Check around for barrrel reline prices. Where do you live? George M.

IPSC

Definition of Brazing---->

Link ---> Brazing Definition

Within the link---> " Brazing differs from welding in that brazing does not melt the base metals, therefore brazing temperatures are lower than the melting points of the base metals. For the same reason, brazing is a superior choice in joining dissimilar metals. Brazed joints are strong. A properly-made joint (like a welded joint) will in many cases be as strong or stronger than the based metals being joined..."

....as my profile/by-line says....I live in Orchard Park, just outside of Buffalo, NY.

The problem "area" is about 1/16" wide, lengthwise within the chamber at the entry....running about 40-60 degrees circumference. That's all it would take to offer better case support. A reline would be pretty extreme for such a small "problem" area.

I considered reline...and even talked to famous reliners like this guy who does Broomhandle Mausers (C96)-->

http://www.redmansrifling.com/relining.htm

....his answer?.... a terse, "I don't do Beretta's !!!! " Sheesh, he works on 22 match rilfes and antique/rare Mausers....but makes me feel like a Leper when I say "Beretta". Got a lot of that "attitude" in asking a number of places.....that's why I'm coming here to this gunsmithing group. It's not a question of checking around for prices...it's a question of who will do it..and how. Some liners are "glued"-in. Wouldn't want that.

IPSC

Here are some pics....there are more...





The rounded-bevel at the 6 o'clock position of chamber...where the feed ramp enters... doesn't seem *that* bad. Other Beretta owners have taken photos of their guns and posted....and it looks the same as to how Beretta built the feed-ramp entry to these guns. But their guns don't show bulged cases. I get little/no bulge with SV ammo...only HV ammo. More range tests are being done...next time with the slide locked-in-place, and using subsonic, SV and HV loads.

retDAC

Read your other thread over at Beretta Forum, including your concerns about danger from a casehead blowout. If it was my gun, I would just shoot it as is. I don't think a casehead blowout is likely and even if it did happen, I would not expect any other rounds to be detonated. Haven't heard of that even in hot rodded .38 Super blowouts.

While seeming unlikely in .22LR due to much less pressure and gas volume, a casehead blowout might shatter the grips. If you want an extra margin of safety, you could mount thin steel plates under them. Might have to recess the inside of the grips.

You mentioned some misfires. Is this just ammo, or were the strikes light?

Have you ever checked the headspace with gauges?

IPSC

The occasional "light-primer strike" misfires are totally cured with the use of the stronger mainspring from Jack First gunshop ( of the various springs I mention in the Beretta Forum thread). I am using the strongest pair of springs I have ( Jack First mainspring, and my original recoil spring).

The theory at that time was that even if the case was unsupported....MAYBE the case was being extracted too soon with weak springs...which would exaggerate the bulging problem by being extracted when pressures are too high. The stronger springs fixed the occasional light-strike problem....fixed the occasional "straight-back-into-face" extraction issues....but did nothing about the bulged cases.

The gun now is extremely accurate and extremely reliable with all manner of ammo...new and old.

Just came back from a range test yesterday....shot subsonic (Remington), standard velocity (CCI) and high velocity rounds (CCI Mini-Mags). In some cases even held the slide closed with a wooden board....but truth be told,even with a "slight" recoil, the board could have jumped off the back of the slide allowing partial opening for a fraction of a second. I can't really be sure the slide was 100% closed during the entire firing cycle. In any event....here are the results--->

subsonic...no bulges
standard velocity.... slight bulging....
high velocity.... same bulging as the pics...as before. Max of these 3 styles of rounds.

I didn't check headspace....but the front-face of the slide, with the inverted "U" shape recess for the cartridge rim...looks "as new" and not worn . I will measure the recess depression amount,and assume this to generally be the headspace, as the flat portion of the slide (not recessed) comes into touching contact with the breech face of the barrel (where the feed ramp enters the chamber).

Lastly....I think there is this common misconception that 22LR rounds....because they are "weaker" then centerfire rounds...somehow operate under lower pressure. I don't think that is the case. The 22 rimfire pressures are 20,000-26,000 psi...if I recall correctly.

IPSC

More info.... I measured the headspace ( meaning...the "front-of-slide" depression dimension, where the cartridge rim sits being captured by the extractor)... is 0.044 ".

SAAMI drawings for 22LR show a "spec" rim thickness of 0.04"...so I would think this dimension is just about perfect....a bit more than rim thickness ( to avoid "slam-fire" if the dimension were too close to 0.040")...but not so much more than 0.04"... to be a headspace problem.....

.... right ??

retDAC

Okay, the headspace seems to be fine and new springs eliminated the other problems.

If you are determined to eliminate the bulging, I think either having the chamber sleeved OR getting a new barrel made OR adapting another make barrel are your best alternatives. How accuracy would be affected remains to be seen. If the latter, I suggest a faster than 1-in-16 twist if feasible/available.

IF you haven't already done so, make a mark on the case and manually feed it into the chamber, noting where the line is in relation to the ramp. Fire it and examine the spent case to make certain it is bulging at the ramp and not, for example, at the extractor cut. This might affect how the sleeve is made/chambered.

As far as finding a 'smith, three disciplines come to mind for accurized .22 pistols: Olympic Rapid Fire, Metallic Silhouette, and NRA Conventional Pistol aka "Bullseye".

BTW, I am impressed with your efforts, especially regarding measuring springs.

IPSC

RetDAC (Dave):

Thank you kindly for the response. Yes....the cases are automatically "indexed" for rotation. The firing pin marks are always at 12 o'clock position (correspondong to the real firing pin location in the gun)...and from this....we can see the bulge is *always* in the general 6 o'clock location. Specifically...always around 4 0'clock to 6-7 o'clock. Matches perfectly with the "overly gentle" feed ramp entry into the chamber.

Thank you for you being seemingly impressed about me taking spring measurements ... however, it was not difficult if you take your time and you have a digital read-out electronic caliper. Easy-peesy.

Been trying to talk to a number of barrel makers....but no one keeps talking to me. Can you recommend someone who you think would be interested to fix this or make a new one?

I keep on coming back to this question...as I really don't understand why this couldn't work--> adding some silver solder to this very small area at the chamber entry...and sanding/grinding down to "cylindrical" shape again to regain case support that currently isn't there. I've worked with high-silver content silver solder in hobby gunsmith work before..and it ends up strong (repairing cracked mags and building up front sight blades,etc). I also can't see doing any real harm to this barrel anyway, seeing what it does now.

Aside.... have people ever relined a chamber ( only?). That sounds intriquing too.

retDAC

Please forgive my oversight regarding the firing pin indent providing an automatic index mark. Momentarily forgot this is rimfire.

There was one possible smith, but it seems he is out of business, probably retired. The reason I mentioned the three disciplines was because there should be a smith for you in one of them.

As I sit here, a few other possibilities come to mind. One is mentioned in post #3 here: Re-boring a barrel, who does it?

A long shot is Karl Sokol at Karl Sokol Chestnut Mountian Sports Gunsmithing Services

Another long shot is here: Home
He said on his site he likes experimental work.

I suppose with a generous application of Heat Stop in, out, and around, your silversolder idea might be worth the risk. You might have to roughen an area or cut a slight groove to give the solder a better grip.

Regarding chamber inserts, what is generally done, after a lot of careful study, planning, and measuring, a short cylinder is cut, bored/chambered, and turned to fit inside a newly formed hole where the original chamber was drilled out carefully to leave a shoulder as a depth stop. In your case perhaps extra metal would be left for a new ramp. After several hours in a freezer - better yet a dry ice/acetone bath - the sleeve is quickly slipped inside the (preferably heated to about 350F) rear of the barrel keeping it properly aligned. If everything was done right, you won't need solder, epoxy, or other adhesive to keep the sleeve in place. If slightly undersize after temps normalize, I think you could use one one of those to keep it in place. It's only a .22 rimfire; they don't get that hot. That's why soft solder and epoxy (take your pick) have long been used for securing liners in .22 rimfires.

I haven't actually done this; just read about it.

If you already knew the procedure, please forgive my redundancy.

Another thought: have you tried contacting Reid Coffield or Alex Hamilton for their recommendations?

IPSC

retDAC:

Great response....no need to be apologetic about anything.... just being clear that I had some way of knowing the rotational position of the fired cases....

Great set of suggestions.... I guess I have a number of phone calls and contacts to make.

Let me go through a number of these suggested possible contacts...and see where we end-up.

Thank you all for taking interest and responding to my little problem...

JohnnyT

You have a headspace problem...and it's a dangerous one. If a case head bursts, the hot gases and brass shards will vent into the magazine. If a sympathetic detonation of 2-3 rounds occurs, it can get pretty ugly.

A heavier spring won't help it a bit. It's a locked-breech/short recoil operated pistol. You can fire it without a recoil spring.

The spring doesn't have any effect on timing. There's often a confusion between time and timing. Timing is mechanically fixed while time is a function of speed and distance. The timed event will occur at its appointed place in the cycle...whether the cycle is in slow motion or at full speed.

IPSC

JohnnyT... I think you're coming in late with your comments....much apreciated..but we've found out some things since the thread started.

My only point in locking the slide, (an easy-enough and cheap "first-test" to do)....was to test the theory someone proposed.....that maybe weak springs were allowing the slide to open too soon (when casing pressures are incrementally higher)...making the unsupported end of the case bulge...or bulge more. A stronger spring (under this theory)...would keep the slide closed a fraction of a second longer, allowing peak pressures to dissipate a bit before the case gets extracted.

No....I am not confusing the timing issue.

As to headspace.... that also is not a problem (see post #11 here). The SAAMI dimensions for the rim thickness of a 22LR cartridge is 0.040" ... and the measured headspace (depression depth on the front of the slide) is 0.044". The slide otherwise closes unimpeded on the breechface. Doesn't sound like a headspace problem to me...does it to you? You need a few thou's more than 0.040", to avoid slamfire should the gun get dirty or a sliver of lead gets caught in there. And if it was a "headspace" problem (and not a feed ramp problem)....wouldn't we be seeing a bulge all around the case, a full 360 degrees ??? Yeah...I think so.

No....the bulge is ONLY around the case for 40-60 degrees...and MATCHES the overly-gently chamber mouth entry at that same 40-60 degree position. So it is most definately NOT a headspace problem, it is a problem that this portion of the chamber shows a portion that gives no (or somewhat less) case support. And is it truly a dangerous problem that you say it is? ... seeing 1.) the amount of the bulge and 2.) seeing that it does not "ring" completely around the case?

Recall too that this happens primarily with HV ammo. The very, very minor bulging that occurs in SV would be something I wouldn't haven't even noticed if I shot only such ammo.

Further follow up.....I asked another member of the Beretta forum who has the same pistol...to show me pictures of his chamber. Same thing. Then I asked for him to fire the gun and look at the cases. Hmm.... SAME....same bulging !!

Look at the pictures. It seems to be the way Beretta shapes the "funnel" of the ramp that enters the chamber....it is much different than any other 22 pistol I have. In these other guns, the "O" shape of the chamber is kept all the way-round and the feed ramp is a bit lower.

IPSC

Quick update.... just a few days ago, picked up a pristine model 70S, mechanically-identical to this 76.

From the 99-100% bluing and other hints....the gun seems to be almost new. The barrel chamber entry looks almost the same as my 76, visually maybe a "tad" less chamfer on the lower edge where the feed ramp enters.

Result?..... bulged cases too !!! ...

Hmmm.... my 2 guns (100% of all Beretta 22's I own !)....plus Vins_CB's model 76 from Milan ( see Beretta forum link) ...all showing tendency to show bulged cases.

More and more I am thinking this is NOT a case of a PO going Dremel crazy. It's function of the goofy feed ramp design which has a much-too-gentle roll-over at 6 0'clock. And perhaps loose controls on the use of hand-held grinders at the factory..... causing some guns to have more material removed than others.

Look here at a Belgian Browning to see a notable difference in design philosophy---->

retDAC

That's interesting. Wondered how your quest is going.

IPSC

retDAC... well....it's where we're at. The topic of this thread is the original model 76. It shows almost no (very little) bulging with SV ammo....which the gun may have been designed for in the first place. A lot more bulging with HV.

A second "control" gun was purchased....a model 70S in almost new condition....to compare and contrast. However, it too is showing bulges, although a bit less. Same deal.... bulging is a bit worse with HV and almost none with SV.

Friend "Vins_CB" on the Beretta board checked and his 76 is also showing some degee of bulging. Gun was in his family since new, 30+ years ago, having been fired a few hundred rounds by his father when bought new...and then not used for 20+ years until recently by him. Meaning?--> not very used...fairly new condition.

So.....this may be a Beretta "70-series" characteristic. Most guys on the Beretta forum are advising if the gun shoots good, feeds and extracts perfectly (as it does).... then simply ignore it, or shoot more SV rounds through it. There is some perverse logic to this, as the bulge is only around a 40-60 degree circumference and may not pose a safety threat afterall.

If it goes toward a fix instead at some point.... I found a "great" pistolsmith who can do a chamber reline....a chamber plus barrel reline ( using premium TJ barrel liners)...or... can try applying some silver solder at the missing case support area (he's not too keen on this last option). John Taylor out of Washington state.

http://www.johntaylormachine.com/ ...I believe he even posts to boards like this one....maybe even this one.

For the time being....doing nothing except gathering more info from the Beretta gang to see how many more of these guns may do this.

retDAC

Good to know about Taylor.

Like I said before I would just shoot it as is. Really would not expect a casehead blowout. Even if there was one, I don't think there is enough gas and pressure to cause any major damage. Could inlet steel inserts under the grips if you're worried.

danf_fl

If you will allow my 2 cents.
Isn't that a target pistol? The 76 I had (if I recall correctly) worked great with target loads.

Some user manuals make a recommendation of what can and cannot be used. My PPK/s in .22 recommends HV only. Even some ammo manufacturers have warnings on which firearms should not use their ammo (Stingers specifically).

IPSC

I have a number of reprint Beretta manuals for the 76....none say anything about the use SV or HV rounds. Just "22 LR caliber" rounds.

As I said, the case is obviously unsupported at 6 o'clock by virtue of the basic feed ramp design that Beretta uses. This feed ramp design is used throughout the 70-series pistols, even the 70S pocket pistol which is not a "target" gun.... like the 76 can be viewed as being.

So...as much as what you say makes sense, in that the 76 is a mid-level "target" gun ( and yes....shows less/no bulges with SV rounds)....if you dig deeper into the question it is still not excusable in my mind that it's happening. Bothers me too that it surfaces for me now.... decades after the gun is out of print. And more so that my newly acquired, mint 70S does the same thing.

I really don't think we can go further....I either limit my rounds to SV...or try to reline the barrel/chamber. In the meantime, I'd like to get more feedback from other series-70 owners. Friend "Vins_CB" ( from Milan, Italy on Beretta forum) now says his 76 does this too. Was in his family since new for 30 yrs and never noticed this before.

As to how it "works" ( you saying that you recall your 76 working well as a target gun)...for sure this gun (and the 70S) is very accurate and 100% reliable with any rounds I feed it. Thank goodness for that.

IPSC

Who is policing this board? ....get "Yigeman" outta here. Just to see for myself, I've now checked ALL the posts made by this person, and they are ALL spam---> http://pistolsmith.com/search.php?searchid=7152

Why not just remove him/her from membership?

retDAC

Whoever sees one first needs to hit the red/white triangle in the lower left corner of a post and report spammer or whatever. This sends a hi pri red flag to the admin.

I've done that for yigeman although one eye joe may have beat me to it.

Admin usually responds PDQ and eliminates the offender.

IPSC

Update:

Well guys... it's been some time since I last posted on this case bulging problem. Come to find out it is a characteristric of the "70-series" Berettas for quite a few guns. Odd thing is, not all do this....but from world-wide responses on various Beretta forums, not all that unusual too. I think we can close out this thread.

I deeply appreciate all responses from this group.... great bunch of guys here....

retDAC

Thanks for the update.

cobrajocky

Just thought I'd add my 2 cents way after the fact, I've had my model 102 (made in 1969) since I bought it almost unused in 1972 at a LGS a friend owned. The 102 was the last version of this Beretta 22LR mid-market Target pistol and ran in production until it was also dropped in the early 80's. I've shot medium level National Match with it for 1/2 a decade and then stepped up to a High Standard Supermatic Military Trophy (the best) with all the accessory goodies.
I'm also a retired Cop/Detective and Dept Armorer/Gunsmith.

Now I use the 102 in "Run n Gun" 22LR class, along with a heavily modified (tactical stock, etc) Ruger 10/22. The 102 packs a laser pointer for day and night shooting competition.

First I'd like to report that my 102 does NOT cause any case bulge at all with SV or "higher" velocity loads like the Wildcat. I don't use Stingers in any 22LR pistol. Since I've never seen or worked on any of the 101 or 76 versions, I can't attest to whether they bulged the case. So, it may be a symptom of the 76 series and using modern HV loads. But get the point, this was made as a TARGET pistol, why would you use less accurate HV loads it was not designed for in the 60's??

Second, at least the 102 was and is a Fine NM style target pistol as far as it's innate accuracy capabilities. It's great problem was that it was too light. I solved that by filling the hollow heal of the grips with lead and adding removable weights under the barrel, just as you do with the High Standard Mil Trophy. I could easily pace anyone with a S&W 41 that had been "worked over" for improvements.

Lastly, I think you are way out of line thinking that Beretta should do something or another about your problem just because you bought it Now, for a pistol (the 76) that hasn't been made since the 1960's. Considering in the 1960's 85% of 22LR ammo that was around was ONLY Standard Velocity!! In the 60's and 70's, even the claims of any HV 22's was laughable. Do you think GM should run around fixing all the 60's Camero's that are around in collections and still being driven on Unleaded Only Gas?? Or Ford for 64 Mustangs?? Sheesh ... Please, Give me a break!

IPSC

Cobrajockey says....

"Lastly, I think you are way out of line thinking that Beretta should do something or another about your problem just because you bought it Now, for a pistol (the 76) that hasn't been made since the 1960's. Considering in the 1960's 85% of 22LR ammo that was around was ONLY Standard Velocity!! In the 60's and 70's, even the claims of any HV 22's was laughable. Do you think GM should run around fixing all the 60's Camero's that are around in collections and still being driven on Unleaded Only Gas?? Or Ford for 64 Mustangs?? Sheesh ... Please, Give me a break! .."

Ahhh.....just WHERE do you get this idea? I'm only trying to figure out if my gun is unique in this regard or not. Seems after some digging that it is not all that unusual as the much newer 70S I bought ( nearly new condition)...also shows bulged cases. Basically asking if it's a defect or not, but it surely would be nice NOT to have this problem.

As to your point about my expectation for the factory or others to fix this...I never say this. As a matter of fact if you go back to my post #5.... I say this instead--->

" The model 76 is long out of print and Beretta is totally at arms length. Look at the Beretta-USA website and you can see they even farmed out the parts business to Brownells and others.

Forget-about-it....a nonstarter.......gun is too old for them to care...."So where do you get this idea? ( besides Mr Motorhead.....it's "Camaro" )

cobrajocky

Pardon me Mr. Perfect, .... Camaro. (never had one, so I give a rats *** about the spelling)

I think everyone on the thread that chimed in had you pegged through out, complaining about nothing and that your pistols were DESIGNED for LV 22LR since today's flavors of real HV lead never existed in 1960 - 70, which went thoroughly over your head. Not surprised though.

Never the less, your tone through-out clearly had you complaining about Beretta's mfg technique and how cold they do this, when there is nothing wrong with Beretta's, including the 101, 76 and 102's go for today 40+ years later for 4 to 5x their original price in the 50's and 60's. Like the boys in the Beretta forums told you, if it functions with the APPROPRIATE flavor of ammo it was designed around in 1960, then just shoot it and stop whining. OK, Mr. Butthead??

IPSC

My point---> I never said what you accused me of saying in your antagonistic first response that chimes in so late.

I've since investigated this now long enough to see that a great percentage of all 76's ( and did you notice I say also 70S's built 20 years later ?) do this....but not all. It all depends ( it appears) on how aggressive the guy at the factory hogged out the 6 o'clock position of the feed ramp. So yes....I was asking how can ONE fix this....not *complaining* about the factory doing this and expecting the *factory* to somehow fix this.

Yeah...I have a bone to pick with Beretta about this technique, as Walthers and Brownings and many other guns of that era.... have tightly controlled feed ramp designs that don't hog out the 6 o'clock position entry into the chamber as severely. So what? That was the opening remarks to get some input as to how we can fix that, as at least 50% of the Berettas don't do this and the other half do this. I never said I expected a factory fix as you implied. After all, in an extreme case....bulged cases can be a safety hazard. Understand also that you started with the "tone" of your abrasive response....I got no bone to pick with you, but I don't need a chiding paragraph from you showing a car example saying one shouldn't expect the manufacturer to make good about cars built 40-50 years ago. Think about it.