tom wilson hammer jig

10mm · 06-04-2002, 07:45 AM

I have almost finished building my first 1911 (I'm waiting on the barrel) and I'm planning my next one. The first one I did I used a hammer/sear/disconnector that gave me pretty nice drop in pull (I don't know the weight because I'm waiting on my trigger pull gauge). For my next one I want to get non-matched parts and do the trigger job myself. I am looking for advice on which jig(s) to use. I am looking at the Ed Brown Sear jig and I have a Tom Wilson Hammer Jig (1-H I think) or the Marvel Custom Hammer & Sear jig. Opinions of both are requested or suggestions on another jig would be fine too. I'm basically looking for a nice, crisp 3.5lb trigger. Thanks.

Critter · 06-04-2002, 12:55 PM

I just got the Ed Brown sear jig and it seems to be of great quality. The only problem that I had is that my hands are small and afflicted with a minor case of arthritis and I was unable to hold it properly so I had to modify it to be held in a vise, which only took about 5 or ten minutes. For what I am going to be doing, I could not justify spending three times more than what I did.

_________________
Bill Z. P-11

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Critter on 2002-06-04 14:06 ]</font>

John Lawson · 06-04-2002, 02:37 PM

I have several different kinds. All of them work just fine if you set them to your personal preferences. Even my old jig that I built while in the Ordnance Corps worked until the day at a gun show when a gent decided he wanted it a lot more than I did.
They all do more or less the same thing. Some of the more expensive fixtures will adapt to handle virtually any handgun, pistol or revolver. These, obviously, are more versatile. But, I've never had a bad trigger job come off any of them...that was the fault of the fixture.
One hint: Don't be afraid to replace your stones when they become worn. It will be money well spent.

10mm · 06-05-2002, 05:36 AM

I think I'm going to go with the Ed Brown. Although I was looking at the Yavapai little microscope thing and apparently it will cut both primary and secondary angles on the sear, plus let you look at the hammer & sear at 25x. Any experience with that? Either way I guess I'll just buy the Brown since it's cheaper and if I feel the need I can get the Yavapai later.

John Lawson · 06-05-2002, 03:23 PM

Wanna buy mine? The fault I find in the design is that it only lets you look at the side view of the mating parts. What is needed is a full view across the mating surfaces. A hammer/sear plate will do you more good in the long run.
It does impress your clients who don't have the faintest idea of what they are seeing.

Critter · 06-06-2002, 05:41 AM

John, I understand what you are saying about the Yapvie tool. You can get an 8.00 microscope at toys are us to view the whole thing any way. My question to you is on the hammer and sear plate. I was going to get one, but instead I purchased the alignment pins that set into the ouside of the frame that you put the hammer and sear on and actually see the relationship that would be on the inside of that particular gun.When we are dealing with these angles and their relief cuts, the measurements run in the thousanths, so a frame being off by a thousanths would make a difference, or so I thought. Do you feel I might still need the plate? Are the alignment pins just a cheap comprimise?

John Lawson · 06-07-2002, 09:29 AM

The pins are a somewhat cumbersome answer to the alignment problem and they have some built in caveats. They may give a false feel due to a very slight angularity to the drilled or reamed holes through the frame. It is ql;uite difficult to determine whether the collars are precisely parallel, meaning that the pins are parallel.
I have an adjustable (two piece) gage block from Brownells that allows some variation in distance between centers. This can be used without resorting to placement of pins through the grip frame, which could cause scraping of the surface by the collars when inserting or removing.
I always use a fixed plate of this sort for the final "feel" of engagement.
You have to practice to get the proper feel to a release. It is necessary to apply forward pressure against the hammer while slipping the engagement. You'll soon master the correct "feel" of parts separation. It becomes apparent if you have any amount of rearward movement of the hammer or creep in the engagement.
Personally, I find that an auxiliary magnifying lens on the regular head mounted magnifying setup is enough total magnification to examine the length of the engagement.
On a blueprint of the grip frame, every measurement is based on a distance from the center of the slide stop pin hole. Obviously, some aftermarket makers do not use this measurement when drilling the sear pin and hammer pin holes, but, rather, use a drill jig that abuts the frame at some point. This accounts for the variations in spacing one encounters. It is the pistolsmith's skill at fitting that allows a superior sear release. And, many factors not recounted in standard explanations of sear/sear notch fitting may enter into some trigger jobs. One such factor is oversize pin holes or wear; another is the left hand hole through the grip frame being funnel shaped or larger than the right hand exit hole. Some holes are simply made oversize to begin with and require use of oversize pins. Etc, etc ,etc.

Critter · 06-07-2002, 12:29 PM

John, why is it your answer seems like it will cost me more money? Oh well, why not, cannot have enough tools. I know that it is hard to describe the 'feel' and it has to be learned from repetition, but what is it you look for in the legnth of engagement? The problem I am having, and I do not know that it is a problem, is that the sear is sticking way above the jig when in place. I would say, and this is a guess based on the .020 shim supplied since I haven't measured, that it is at about .050 or so. If I lay my stone on the shim, it is 'jacked' up at the sear end, thus changing the angle. Do I get a thicker shim? do I stone/file the sear until I can run the stone flush? Have you run into this before?

John Lawson · 06-07-2002, 01:19 PM

You will have to adjust the fixture to let the stone ride at precisely the factory angle, that is, no light showing and then you won't be grinding some ad lib angle on the nose. You check to see whether the release is uniform across the parts and not releawsing first on one side and then on another.
To those who inquired about my Yavapai stoning and microscope (25X) fixture in like new condition: I found it and yes, I will sell it for $65 including postage.
You only need the one fixture, since it has provisions for stoning and checking release/fit. eMail me direct.

Critter · 06-08-2002, 03:46 AM

Thanks John, youv'e been helpful

Critter · 06-09-2002, 07:20 AM

Just noticed a side effect of the 'block' I put on the bottom of my Ed Broen sear jig from the above photo. With the extra material I put on the bottom to hold it in a vise, I can now hold it properly in my hand. O guess it is because of the angle my fingers are now. If anyone has one of these, try putting a small block in your hand with the jig to see if it is more comfortable for you, I may even be on to something here.

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06-04-2002, 07:45 AM	#1
10mm Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Bel Air, MD Posts: 233	I have almost finished building my first 1911 (I'm waiting on the barrel) and I'm planning my next one. The first one I did I used a hammer/sear/disconnector that gave me pretty nice drop in pull (I don't know the weight because I'm waiting on my trigger pull gauge). For my next one I want to get non-matched parts and do the trigger job myself. I am looking for advice on which jig(s) to use. I am looking at the Ed Brown Sear jig and I have a Tom Wilson Hammer Jig (1-H I think) or the Marvel Custom Hammer & Sear jig. Opinions of both are requested or suggestions on another jig would be fine too. I'm basically looking for a nice, crisp 3.5lb trigger. Thanks.

06-04-2002, 12:55 PM	#2
Critter Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Augusta, GA Posts: 109	I just got the Ed Brown sear jig and it seems to be of great quality. The only problem that I had is that my hands are small and afflicted with a minor case of arthritis and I was unable to hold it properly so I had to modify it to be held in a vise, which only took about 5 or ten minutes. For what I am going to be doing, I could not justify spending three times more than what I did. _________________ Bill Z. P-11 <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Critter on 2002-06-04 14:06 ]</font>

06-04-2002, 02:37 PM	#3
John Lawson Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 391	I have several different kinds. All of them work just fine if you set them to your personal preferences. Even my old jig that I built while in the Ordnance Corps worked until the day at a gun show when a gent decided he wanted it a lot more than I did. They all do more or less the same thing. Some of the more expensive fixtures will adapt to handle virtually any handgun, pistol or revolver. These, obviously, are more versatile. But, I've never had a bad trigger job come off any of them...that was the fault of the fixture. One hint: Don't be afraid to replace your stones when they become worn. It will be money well spent.

06-05-2002, 05:36 AM	#4
10mm Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Bel Air, MD Posts: 233	I think I'm going to go with the Ed Brown. Although I was looking at the Yavapai little microscope thing and apparently it will cut both primary and secondary angles on the sear, plus let you look at the hammer & sear at 25x. Any experience with that? Either way I guess I'll just buy the Brown since it's cheaper and if I feel the need I can get the Yavapai later.

06-05-2002, 03:23 PM	#5
John Lawson Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 391	Wanna buy mine? The fault I find in the design is that it only lets you look at the side view of the mating parts. What is needed is a full view across the mating surfaces. A hammer/sear plate will do you more good in the long run. It does impress your clients who don't have the faintest idea of what they are seeing.

06-06-2002, 05:41 AM	#6
Critter Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Augusta, GA Posts: 109	John, I understand what you are saying about the Yapvie tool. You can get an 8.00 microscope at toys are us to view the whole thing any way. My question to you is on the hammer and sear plate. I was going to get one, but instead I purchased the alignment pins that set into the ouside of the frame that you put the hammer and sear on and actually see the relationship that would be on the inside of that particular gun.When we are dealing with these angles and their relief cuts, the measurements run in the thousanths, so a frame being off by a thousanths would make a difference, or so I thought. Do you feel I might still need the plate? Are the alignment pins just a cheap comprimise?

06-07-2002, 09:29 AM	#7
John Lawson Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 391	The pins are a somewhat cumbersome answer to the alignment problem and they have some built in caveats. They may give a false feel due to a very slight angularity to the drilled or reamed holes through the frame. It is ql;uite difficult to determine whether the collars are precisely parallel, meaning that the pins are parallel. I have an adjustable (two piece) gage block from Brownells that allows some variation in distance between centers. This can be used without resorting to placement of pins through the grip frame, which could cause scraping of the surface by the collars when inserting or removing. I always use a fixed plate of this sort for the final "feel" of engagement. You have to practice to get the proper feel to a release. It is necessary to apply forward pressure against the hammer while slipping the engagement. You'll soon master the correct "feel" of parts separation. It becomes apparent if you have any amount of rearward movement of the hammer or creep in the engagement. Personally, I find that an auxiliary magnifying lens on the regular head mounted magnifying setup is enough total magnification to examine the length of the engagement. On a blueprint of the grip frame, every measurement is based on a distance from the center of the slide stop pin hole. Obviously, some aftermarket makers do not use this measurement when drilling the sear pin and hammer pin holes, but, rather, use a drill jig that abuts the frame at some point. This accounts for the variations in spacing one encounters. It is the pistolsmith's skill at fitting that allows a superior sear release. And, many factors not recounted in standard explanations of sear/sear notch fitting may enter into some trigger jobs. One such factor is oversize pin holes or wear; another is the left hand hole through the grip frame being funnel shaped or larger than the right hand exit hole. Some holes are simply made oversize to begin with and require use of oversize pins. Etc, etc ,etc.

06-07-2002, 12:29 PM	#8
Critter Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Augusta, GA Posts: 109	John, why is it your answer seems like it will cost me more money? Oh well, why not, cannot have enough tools. I know that it is hard to describe the 'feel' and it has to be learned from repetition, but what is it you look for in the legnth of engagement? The problem I am having, and I do not know that it is a problem, is that the sear is sticking way above the jig when in place. I would say, and this is a guess based on the .020 shim supplied since I haven't measured, that it is at about .050 or so. If I lay my stone on the shim, it is 'jacked' up at the sear end, thus changing the angle. Do I get a thicker shim? do I stone/file the sear until I can run the stone flush? Have you run into this before?

06-07-2002, 01:19 PM	#9
John Lawson Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 391	You will have to adjust the fixture to let the stone ride at precisely the factory angle, that is, no light showing and then you won't be grinding some ad lib angle on the nose. You check to see whether the release is uniform across the parts and not releawsing first on one side and then on another. To those who inquired about my Yavapai stoning and microscope (25X) fixture in like new condition: I found it and yes, I will sell it for $65 including postage. You only need the one fixture, since it has provisions for stoning and checking release/fit. eMail me direct.

06-08-2002, 03:46 AM	#10
Critter Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Augusta, GA Posts: 109	Thanks John, youv'e been helpful

06-09-2002, 07:20 AM	#11
Critter Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Augusta, GA Posts: 109	Just noticed a side effect of the 'block' I put on the bottom of my Ed Broen sear jig from the above photo. With the extra material I put on the bottom to hold it in a vise, I can now hold it properly in my hand. O guess it is because of the angle my fingers are now. If anyone has one of these, try putting a small block in your hand with the jig to see if it is more comfortable for you, I may even be on to something here.