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Old 08-19-2003, 07:08 AM   #11
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 251
Mr. Smith

Combat accuracy is 4" at 25 yds, mine is half that.

If you are home were you belong between 10PM and 6AM the muzzle flash shouldn't be a problem. If you are running the roads between those times...well, you deserve what you find.

The muzzle flash doesn't bother me.

OK, the body is 55% liquid, but it is more like a liquid filled balloon than it is like a box of wet newspaper or wet sawdust.

Indeed the M-S report is outdated, but unless you are a mortician, or pathologist, it is about as close to first hand info as you are likely to get.

My opinion.
 
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Old 09-30-2003, 01:57 PM   #12
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 56
I carry Winchester 230 JHP "Personal Protection". Yea, the cheap stuff you can buy most places for $14.00 for 50 rounds. It has proven very reliable in my TRS and I dont blow a sphincter when I pop off a 25 rounds every so often to refresh my carry clips.

I believe the lesson with Chuck Taylor is that he puts his money into good training and not on a super do-it-all bullet. Just my opinion anyway.

Flash signatures at night shouldnt be much of a problem if you are using a good flashlight. The reflected light from the target is usually much brighter than the flash anyway. The problem lies in dim/no light shooting. Assuming you can identify the target ("Your honor I was PRETTY sure he had a weapon") a bright flash in these conditions can trash your night vision.

chris k
 
Old 09-30-2003, 03:32 PM   #13
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 61
M&S's stats didn't stand up to scientific scrutiny, neither have Ayoobs.
None of the people who have published "real world" stats have had theirs stand up to scientific scrutiny.

So for now all we have is shooting Jello, mmmmmmm Jello, and anecdotal accounts of stopping power.
I stick with the 10mm and 45acp, but that is a personal choice based upon anecdotal information I have gleaned over the years.
So take it for what it is worth.
 
 
Old 10-01-2003, 09:03 AM   #14
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 253
[quote="David Winkler"]Mr. Smith



If you are home were you belong between 10PM and 6AM the muzzle flash shouldn't be a problem. If you are running the roads between those times...well, you deserve what you find.

Well, that is a little out of line. What if you have a job that requires you to be on the road at that time? Still deserve what we find? So truck drives, EMT's, taxi drivers, delivery men and the donut guys just get what they deserve for not being home in bed.
:roll:
Indeed the M-S report is outdated, but unless you are a mortician, or pathologist, it is about as close to first hand info as you are likely to get.

The problem with M-S is that they only count one shot stops. They don't count 2 shot stops and they don't add anything for bullet placement. So a one shot to the arm that didn't immediately stop an opponent is counted as a one shot, did not stop. They throw out any data that does not agree with their preconceived notions and they will not give up their data set for analysis by anyone else. If any other statistician in the world wouldn't let others look at his data set, they would be run out of the scientific community.

quote]
 
Old 10-03-2003, 04:50 AM   #15
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 251
If you have to work during those hours, everyone knows the risks. I'm talking about the younger folks who don't start out on a date till 11 PM and it isn't over till day light...

That is a bad time to be out running the streets, even if you are careful, attentive, and have the best of intentions.
 
Old 10-03-2003, 04:50 AM   #16
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 251
If you have to work during those hours, everyone knows the risks. I'm talking about the younger folks who don't start out on a date till 11 PM and it isn't over till day light...

That is a bad time to be out running the streets, even if you are careful, attentive, and have the best of intentions.
 
Old 10-03-2003, 04:57 AM   #17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillD
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Winkler
Mr. Smith



If you are home were you belong between 10PM and 6AM the muzzle flash shouldn't be a problem. If you are running the roads between those times...well, you deserve what you find.

Well, that is a little out of line. What if you have a job that requires you to be on the road at that time? Still deserve what we find? So truck drives, EMT's, taxi drivers, delivery men and the donut guys just get what they deserve for not being home in bed.
:roll:
quote]
If a person just wants to be out that time for nothing at all they should be safe doing it. It's a sad day when we can't go out without being in fear. This mindset seems to be giving in to the bad guys. I've been known to get up in the middle of the night and take a walk just because I can't sleep. I expect to be left alone too.
 
Old 10-03-2003, 06:36 AM   #18
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 251
GlenS

I agree totally. But that is not the case where I live. I am old enough to remember leaving the keys in the car overnight in the driveway and going away for the weekend and not locking the house...Not anymore, and no place I know of that has an urban population within 40 or so miles.

It is sad, and a poor comentary on society today...but those are the facts in my area. Hope you are better off where you live.
 
Old 03-29-2004, 10:25 AM   #19
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Missouri
Posts: 391
M&S Stats

I think that the problem with M&S Stats is that it is out of date. That was then this is now. With the more technology every day you can't compare it to todays standards. If you look at ammo like the new extrem shock ammo and items in comparison then there have been grave inprovements in the expanding projectile market. I know that most of the defensive ammo out there is getting better and better but some still lack. In terms of stopping power I think along with thousands of others that the .45acp is hard to beat. The 10mm offers more power and speed and would prob. stop someone faster and have a greater chance of a kill. Bottem line when it comes to stopping power, if it stops them when your butt is on the line in one shot or two or more then you are right about your own brand of ammo. I prefer one shot stops if possible if not then two will work. .45acp Hardball has been droping bad guys for close to 100 years. There is something to be said about that alone. If that is the case then a .230gr HP of any kind is 9 out of ten times going to do the same but maybe a little better. I read an artical about a guy that helped develope missles and stuff that had a new formula on calulating the stopping power precentage of different ammo and forgot his name and the formula. If I can find it and it is not already posted I will post it. I trust it more than M&S.
 
Old 03-29-2004, 07:40 PM   #20
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 152
As for personal defense ammo in .45ACP, I stick with Federal 230gr Hydra Shoks. Why? Well, the 185gr and 165gr loads are a bit light for me, and I enjoy the fact that the 230gr shoots to the same POI as 230gr ball, which is the cheapest practice ammo I can find. I have yet to find any 165 or 185gr practice loads, and I have never seen the lighter loads offered in the 50rd boxes like the 230gr. Some people say that the Hydra Shok has a tendency to plug when shot through denim or certain other materials rendering it basically ball. Well, last I checked ball had a pretty decent track record... at least in military use. In all honesty, I stick with the 230gr Hydra Shok because it functions well in all my guns, it's very accurate, and has a similar profile to ball. I trust it. A good friend of mine, George Harris, assistant director of training at the Sigarms Academy, prefers the 200gr Speer Gold Dot +P. I have friends who like the Golder Sabers and Winchester Ranger ammo. All are good choices. Truth be told, there are so many good ammo choices for defense these days that it's hard to make a bad choice. My criteria are simple: it has to function, be accurate, and reasonably low in flash. If you like the 165gr Hydra Shoks and they work in your gun, go for it. Just remember, a well placed shot with ball is a whole helluva lot better fight stopper than a pinky taken off by a Glaser Safety Slug. Just my $0.02, so take it for what it's worth.
 
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