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Old 03-29-2004, 07:58 PM   #21
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Quote:
I think that the problem with M&S Stats is that it is out of date.
The problem with M&S is the stats were bad, it has nothing to do with being dated.

That said, the best rounds for self defense are a modern HP with the most weight and biggest dia. that you can control.



 
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Old 03-30-2004, 05:06 AM   #22
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M&S

Mr. Burns,
I agree, just worded it different. There is a different Formula that I have used that takes the bullet weight X a number then the speed then the expanded diameter. After you do all the math you have a precentage of one stop shots. I do not know if it is the best and nothing is iron-clad but when I took big bore rifles and handguns it showed what I would think the results would be. You wouldn't happen to know the one I am talking about?
 
Old 04-06-2004, 10:55 PM   #23
 
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ammo for defence

Hornady 230 and 230+p are great defensive rounds.
 
 
Old 04-06-2004, 11:23 PM   #24
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Re: M&S

Quote:
Originally Posted by spcwes
I agree, just worded it different. There is a different Formula that I have used that takes the bullet weight X a number then the speed then the expanded diameter. After you do all the math you have a precentage of one stop shots.
I know Evan Marshal casually. I haven't discussed stopping power or his book with him. But I suspect even he thinks his data is in error after the fact and all the propfessional reviews.

But I also think the book was excellent research from a users point of view.

Credit has to be given to both authors for making the statement and offering an opinion. While the data might well be flawed from a statistical stand point, the book's info tells you that a bigger bullet with more weight works better on humans.

My point is there is no formula that gives you reliable stopping power on a human target.

Best way to get a big hole in a human is shoot them with a big bullet....if you need a bigger hole shoot them again. More importantly shoot them where they need to be shot.

That works for a 38 or a 50. My take is shoot them often and in the right place till they fall down.

My choice in my own gun is definded on how fast I can hit the target and how many bullets does it carry? I take a simple look with no math or stats involved.

It is proven fact that 90% of all stats are made up on the spot.
And this isn't rocket science.



 
Old 04-07-2004, 08:53 AM   #25
 
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I prefer a bullet that penetrates adequately while consistently expanding the most, qualities that are not necessarily cohorts of initial weight and diameter.

I carry the Taurus HEX -- all-copper 185 gr. hollowpoint that opens like an umbrella in 10% ballistic gelatin, and penetrates more than a foot, with or without clothing, wood, glass or metal barriers.

No reports of it from the field yet, so, theoretically, I probably shouldn't trust my life with it until enuf others have risked theirs. Sometimes, however, theory and probability have to take a back seat to instinct. Anyway, that's my excuse.
 
Old 04-07-2004, 11:27 AM   #26
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ClarkK,
I have not heard any field reports on it yet either but there is a web-site called www.ammolab.com that has some interesting info on it and rate it as one of the top preformers as far as expansion and weight retention go. They have one on bare gel that is almost the size of a quarter with over 85% weight retention. I would still like to see a 230gr offering of the HEX. I am still a firm believer in bigger and heavier is better. I think that it would make a good round. 8)

Mr. Burns, what do you think of the new extreme shock warheads and ammo? I have not heard any info on it yet but seems to be hot. 8)
 
Old 04-07-2004, 11:32 AM   #27
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hotntot12
I love Hornady ammo but I have heard and seen some results that I am not to happy with on the XTP. I have seen more than one test that shows to much of a curve with expansion. I know nothing is perfect, but I have seen better results and do not understand why the expansion is so different on the XTP but it is. I have seen one were it was fired into the same type target and have some of the HPs hardly expand at all. I may have been just that day or a bad day for Hornady but still concerns me when we talk about a selfdefense round. Most of the stuff I like from Hornady is rifle ammo. 8)
 
Old 04-07-2004, 11:39 AM   #28
 
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Spcwes - I believe the R&D that led to the HEX round and a similar round just out from Cor-Bon (DPX, which also uses the 185 gr Barnes all-copper bullet) determined that 185 grains was best ballistically for what it was supposed to accomplish. Presumably a heavier bullet wouldn't reach the optimum fps within whatever pressure parameters the designers wanted.

Anyway, a bullet that penetrates a foot and expands to the size of a quarter in doing so is about as good as it gets in my book.
 
Old 04-07-2004, 11:40 AM   #29
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Since you asked. I don't have any experience with any of the newest self defense ammo.

I am not a believer in carrying any ammo that you can't afford to practice with.

I don't really care what the claims are. The most important issues imo with a hand gun by far are: having a gun when you need it, then actually hitting what you aim at.

My thoughts have changed several times over the past 20 years. That is what I have concluded from all the designer ammo I have shot, the sim shootings and training I have whitnessed, and the studies on actual shooting results.



 
Old 04-07-2004, 12:05 PM   #30
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Mr. Burns,
I agree on the price. You have to be able to pratice with what ever ammo you have and if you can't you may miss and that expensive ammo does absolutely nothing but maybe cause collateral. Just checking, if it does what it says it will, it may be worth an investment. Then again I probably wouldn't be able to afford it so don't know why I am even talking about it. Thanks for the comment. 8)
 
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