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Old 03-30-2010, 08:40 AM   #41
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Down by the river
Posts: 175
First choice and what I carry, 230 grain, Winchester Ranger Talons...

Fired into three phone books that were water soaked for two days (next best thing to ballistic gel). Bullet passed through two books then into about 1" of third book with a continued shock wave for about another 2". The Talon expands to 1" as it cuts through flesh with its razor sharp tines.

Verses a Zero 230 grain Hollow Point... Penetration was a little deeper due to less expansion.

Off the shelf at your local sporting goods store would be Speer Gold Dots. I've read many reports on studies with superior results. Speer also challenged any police department to visit their facilities bringing their ammunition and comparatively test firing GD's and theirs; they all went home with Gold Dots.
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Old 07-15-2010, 01:25 PM   #42
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 24
Originally Posted by David Winkler
Mr. Smith

If you are home were you belong between 10PM and 6AM the muzzle flash shouldn't be a problem. If you are running the roads between those times...well, you deserve what you find.

Well, that is a little out of line. What if you have a job that requires you to be on the road at that time? Still deserve what we find? So truck drives, EMT's, taxi drivers, delivery men and the donut guys just get what they deserve for not being home in bed.
Indeed the M-S report is outdated, but unless you are a mortician, or pathologist, it is about as close to first hand info as you are likely to get.

The problem with M-S is that they only count one shot stops. They don't count 2 shot stops and they don't add anything for bullet placement. So a one shot to the arm that didn't immediately stop an opponent is counted as a one shot, did not stop. They throw out any data that does not agree with their preconceived notions and they will not give up their data set for analysis by anyone else. If any other statistician in the world wouldn't let others look at his data set, they would be run out of the scientific community.


That's pretty-much what Fackler did when they first came out with it and stole his egotistical thunder.

If a round stops with one-shot 97% of the time who cares if the shooter didn't immediately do a forensic examination of the wound. A one-shot stop is a one-shot stop. That is all that matters, cessession of hostilities. You all can argue scientific minutae all you want, bottom line is that M&S gives a decent snapshot of stopping power. Only problem I have with it, and it is a small problem, is that it's slanted towards whatever round the majority of LEOs are carrying at the time. But, there is enough data for me to make a somewhat informed decision on what 45ACP to stuff in my Kimber. There is such as thing as too much information too. I've heard some Arm-Chair experts claim that unless there was film of each stop and each shot and a detailed forensic-analysis the information was useless. To which I answered one with," Well, unless they interview the guy right after the shot to find out what it felt like, what his initial reaction internally was and what he had for lunch, their data-demand was useless." Too much data is too much data.

On the whole, good post. FWIW, I agree with 99% of it.

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