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Old 10-31-2001, 05:49 AM   #21
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Thanks for all the posts and I'm looking forward to those 9mm results. Damn my logical mind!!! The reason all this started was from looking at another post on this board. Think it was Mr Difabio that said "If you say only a fool would use a .115gr x bullet against a 280lb cat would a 300lb man be that different?" and its no different at all.

I want to be sure that my bullet will do its job if I do. I know shot placement is golden, thats a given. Heavier bullet = more momentum = more penetration. At least thats the way I look at it. It seems to me that a lighter round at higher velocities would be less predictable.

When I first bought my 9mm I did it knowing that I was good shot and that the round would do its job if I did. I have been wondering if it really will lately. And there is a shortage of unbiased information out there on the subject.

I dont have the resources to do my own testing right now but I will later on. Until then I await your 9mm results with great anticipation Mr Difabio. As I have come to trust your data and knowledge base from reading all you have posted on this board.


I'm sorry to hear about your camera.
 
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Old 10-31-2001, 09:38 AM   #22
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As an interim if I may comment, it really is all about what you can shoot fast and accurately.

If you can shoot the 9mm well, move to a .357Sig, if you shoot it well, move to a 9x23, if it continues move to a .45 and then up to the 10mm.

If while moving the "power scale" you stumble or suffer a reduction in efficency due to increased recoil or decreased ergonomics as in a larger pistol meets smaller hand or the pistols frame size is now less than ideal for your carefully evaluated and optimum carry methods then drop back one caliber.

It is all about choosing the optimum system for your exact personal capabilities and preferences.

When push comes to shove a skilled man can use almost any common tool to defend themselves and really could "kill/incapacitate" just as many attackers with a common framing hammer as he could with any other weapon system be it knife, gun, car etcetera...
But it is surely less than ideal and a far way from being efficent.

Almost anything you choose can work, strive for an optimized package that works within your system and environment.
 
Old 10-31-2001, 10:04 AM   #23
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For years I carried a 38 Super.But after alot of prodding and views from alot of post I now carry a 45.I can shoot my 45 about as well as my 38 Super so now I am comfortable with my choice.
 
 
Old 10-31-2001, 10:27 AM   #24
 
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Just to muddy the waters even further, have you considered the .40 S&W?

It will give you more power than the 9 (admittedly not much of a challenge); more capacity than a .45; and a very wide range of firearms from which to choose - including 1911 clones.

Decisions, decisions.......
 
Old 11-01-2001, 10:51 PM   #25
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David: I absolutely agree with you on that. I will not sacrifice accuracy for a bigger bullet. I'd rather put a 9 in the heart than a 45 in the shoulder.

I am very good with the 9, very confident that I can effectivly deploy it. My concern was whether the bullet I'm using will perform as good as I do. If so then I'll just stick with it, if it is questionable then I want to start experimenting around with other calibers.

I'm not one of those magic bullet seekers. A board with a nail in it is dangerous in the right hands. But if the **** hits the fan and I can only get 1, maybe two rounds off and I do my job, I want the bullet to do it's job. Granted handguns do suck as man stoppers, a motivated person has no real reason to stop from a bullet wound unless it is in the CNS. So then it becomes a matter of blood lose which requires a hole being made in a vital organ deep within the body. Want to make sure my bullets will get there to do that.
 
Old 11-02-2001, 12:29 AM   #26
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I would be perfectly happy with virtually any 9mm load in 147gr.

I personally have tested and carried these loads with complete satisfaction:

Winchester "Subsonic" 147gr JHP. This is the load issued to the U.S. military, and is often referred to as the OSM, or Olin Super Match load.

Remington Golden Saber 147gr BJHP.

Federal Classic 147gr JHP. This load is also issued to the U.S. military.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com

Here's some more info. Hopefully DocGKR from Tactical Forums doesn't mind :smile: .

"Terminal velocity and kinetic energy are not directly very important factors in assessing damage to tissue, as they are not mechanisms of wounding. What is important in analyzing injury, is what anatomic area has the bullet damaged and how severe is the damage. There are two mechanisms of damaging tissue: tissue in the projectile's path is permanently cut and crushed by direct contact with the bullet as it pushes through tissue and tissue surrounding the projectile's path is briefly stretched and displaced by the passage of the projectile. The effects of the Permanent Cavity, or hole created as the projectile cut and crushes the tissue in its path are reliable and consistent based on what anatomic structures the bullet disrupts and the severity of the tissue damage. Since larger projectiles crush more tissue, they create a larger hole and damage more tissue. The Temporary Cavity is the empty space briefly formed by the transient, radial displacement of the tissue surrounding the projectile's path. The tissue that is stretched by the Temporary Cavity is analogous to an area of blunt trauma surrounding the Permanent Cavity and like all blunt trauma injuries Temporary Cavitation effects are extremely variable and erratic. The severity of any injury resulting from Temporary Cavitation is highly dependent on anatomic and physiologic considerations. For example, elastic, flexible soft tissues, such as muscle, bowel wall, skin, blood vessels, and empty hollow organs are good energy absorbers and are highly resistant to temporary cavity stretch injuries, while inelastic tissues, such as brain, liver, kidney, spleen, pancreas, and completely full fluid or gas filled hollow organs are highly susceptible to severe splitting, tearing, or rupture due to Temporary Cavity stretch insults. Unlike many rifle bullets, the relatively small diameter temporary cavity created from typical law enforcement handgun bullets, such as 9 mm, .357 Magnum, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP, does not reliably damage tissue and is not usually a significant mechanism of wounding.
Handgun bullet fragmentation is not an advantage, in fact, it is a detriment. In every autopsy and laboratory test I have conducted or observed, when a handgun bullet in the commonly used law enforcement pistol calibers, such as 9 mm, .357 Magnum, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP has fragmented, the resulting tissue damage has been decreased since the bullet diameter has been reduced. The fragments have generally been found strung out behind the bullet in the primary wound track and have not increased the amount of tissue damage.

In general, Cor-Bon is some of the worst performing ammunition that we have tested. Corbon appears to purchase bullets and components from other manufacturers and then increases the velocity beyond the range for which the bullets were designed. This results in variety of problems: over expansion with shallow penetration, bullet fragmentation and smaller expanded diameter, failure to penetrate intermediate barriers--all leading to decreased wounding effects.

9mm Corbon +P 115 gr JHP: Vel=1367f/s; pen=10.2”; RD=0.50”; RW=70.5gr
9mm Federal 147 gr JHP (9MS): Vel=961 f/s, pen=12.3", RD=0.61" RW=147.1gr

This is typical Cor-Bon performance. Which bullet is more effective? Obviously, the slower bullet that did not fragment created a larger hole, would damage more tissue, and result in potentially more rapid incapacitation.

San Diego PD switched to the 9mm 147 gr JHP when their lighter weight, higher velocity 9mm 115 gr JHP bullets had several failures to penetrate deeply enough to create damage to vital organs in the torso and cause rapid incapacitation. The largest independently verified study of bullet penetration and expansion characteristics in living human tissue has shown the 9mm 147 gr JHP to offer acceptable performance in law enforcement lethal force confrontations. A senior criminalist with the San Diego P.D., Mr. Eugene J. Wolberg, has analyzed their 9 mm 147 gr JHP performance in 10% ordnance gelatin and compared the laboratory results with the actual terminal effects produced in human tissue in nearly 150 officer involved shootings with the San Diego Police Department. When I last spoke with Mr. Wolberg in May of 2000, the majority of their bullets had penetrated 13 to 15 inches and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin. This appears to be ideal performance from a 9mm. Other large California agencies using the 9mm 147 gr JHP, such as Los Angeles PD, Los Angeles SO, San Jose PD, Santa Clara PD, Santa Clara SO, San Mateo SO, and San Francisco PD have had similar results. These and other California agencies successfully using the 9mm 147 gr JHP have thousands of officers with hundreds of officer involved shootings. Perhaps the documented success of the 9mm 147 gr JHP in California is a result of differing laws of physics on the West Coast than in other areas. Unfortunately, that conjecture does not stand up to scrutiny as the extensive Royal Canadian Mounted Police studies determined that the 9mm 147 gr JHP was the most effective load for the caliber. In addition, during the ammunition trials for the M11 pistol (military Sig P228) done at Navy Weapons Center Crane Indiana, the Federal 147gr JHP (9MS) was selected as the issue load for the M11, beating a variety of other 9mm JHP loads, including both standard pressure and +P pressure115 gr and 124 gr JHP’s. This same load was also procured by Crane for use by Tier One military units authorized to issue JHP ammunition with their 9 mm weapons, such as the Sig P226 and MP-5N.

I am not attempting to represent a "low velocity argument" any more than a high velocity theory; rather, I am reporting what we have found during our independent testing of ammunition. I do not care what velocity or weight a particular bullet possesses, as long as it has appropriate penetration and expansion characteristics; at this point in time, however, I have observed that moderate velocity, heavier weight handgun bullets appear to offer the most effective combination of penetration and expansion, although this may change as technology improves."



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Clay on 2001-11-02 01:35 ]</font>
 
Old 11-02-2001, 01:52 AM   #27
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Great stuff Clay,

FWIW, my personal P7M13 is loaded with Winchester Ranger Talon 127gr +P+ 9mm, my wife's Kahr P9 is loaded with Remington 115gr Golden Saber +P+ (special contract run) and my often carried Sig P210 is loaded with Speer Gold Dot 147gr jhp (*when maximum accuracy is required the P210 is loaded with Normas non-catalogued 150gr FMJFP, I have been able to shoot 50 yard groups of 2.5" with this load and that is very good for me. You bullseye guys with 1.5" 1911s can back off now).

Each gun functions 100% with each load and each gun will shoot into 2.0" @ 25 yards with the chosen loads.

These loads perform optimally for the environments that they are carried into and as an FYI, I have tested dozens of other loads in each gun and carefully examined the results before making my selections.

For my purposes these loads are optimum and I have absolutely no problem in relying on them and would not choose a larger caliber gun to replace them for their chosen uses.
 
Old 11-02-2001, 01:18 PM   #28
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Quote:
On 2001-11-02 01:29, Clay wrote:
I would be perfectly happy with virtually any 9mm load in 147gr.
<snippage>
An excellent summary Clay!
Press on,
Jim Higginbotham
 
Old 11-02-2001, 05:57 PM   #29
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Confuse me why don't you. Why the 127gr +P+ in the P7M13, and 147gr GD in the P210? Greater barrel length in the 210?

-Morgan
 
Old 11-02-2001, 06:40 PM   #30
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Why Accuracy of course,

Accuracy and reliability are always #1.
The P210 does it's best jhp accuracy work with the 147gr GD.

If it were not for the fact that the Norma FMJFP averages 26" of penetration I would forgo the jhp's altogether in the P210.
 
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