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Old 04-02-2004, 05:54 PM   #71
 
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Not a problem. This arguement will never end though. I would also like to point out that I have two 1911s and would not want to carry anything else if I had the choice... Aside from possibly a Mossberg 590 or a Springfield M1A1.
 
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Old 04-06-2004, 05:13 AM   #72
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Jim Higginbotham,
You seem to know a little bit about what you are talking about! I was wondering if you might help me and I also have some input into the conversation. First there was a man that help develope the hellfire missle system that came up with a one stop shot formula on rating how effective different bullets are. I was wondering if you have the guys name or the formula? Second, I think that there are a lot of variables that play on a projectile to stop and incapacitate a person. Of course, bullet placement is the most important, and size, bullet type, and speed are very important as well. But after all that is said and done there are some things that I have also found in common in a lot of the quick take downs. I have spoke with a lot of other officers and SWAT officers on this matter and done a fair amount of research as well. One of the things, and probably the one that stands out the most is the situation. For instance the last one that I heard is I think a FBI take down on a bad guy with hostages. Door unhinged, flashbang, two operators through the door one double tap each and he hit the floor. I know it is not a single shot but it was the situatiion that played the most important part in the take down. I think that the bad guy had it in his mind that he was in control and he was not going to have to fight his way out of the building. Different scenario, a felony stop. Two patrol officers stop a vehical on a suspected felony stop and they have the driver exit the vehical, the driver a black male about 6'3" and over 200lbs still bumping his music. The department had issued there officers 45s and had between 185 to 230 HPs in all there weapons. The driver with his back to the officer sad a bad word and spun and shot the one directly behind him in the neck with a 9mm and killed him and then fired on the other which also returned fire striking the perp. After all the back-up arrived the perp took 24 before the 25th took him down and the passenger took 7 and I think they were brothers. Neither had any drugs or anything else in there systems. Doc said that the one had 21 lethal shots in his upper body. The difference is that the later had the will to fight and time to think about it. They got there fighting glands pumping and I know from experiance that if a man has it in his head that he is going to win no matter what he becomes a very hard target. The only way to effectively stop them in my opinion is to put something else in there mind like a 230gr hp. Just some thoughts. Sorry about it being so long winded.
 
Old 04-06-2004, 06:55 AM   #73
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spcwes;

Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the fellow you are talking about - at least not with that description, if you have his name I may have run across it. There are many attempts at trying to estimate "stopping power" or effectivness. I cannot claim to have reviewed them all but I have looked at dozens and from time to time even might have beleived they worked but I am getting pertty skeptical about finding one that is truly accurate. Even collecting actual case histories is wraught with pitfalls.

You hit upon the reason for this...there are simply too many variables. One of the most important is the mindset of the subject being shot. Another is the physical condition/characteristics of the subject. These probabaly outweigh any ballistic property...at least from weapons we can conveniently carry. We haven't even gotten to the placement (and necessary penetration to the vital organs that we actually aim to hit) yet!

I recall in my youth waxing eleoquent about "hydrastatic shock" and how it was what made rifles so effective (well OK I had read it so that made it right...right? And I had blown up a few small vermin with 22-250s and the .264 Win. Mag). Then one of the guys introduced me to an old gent in the next building over (I worked at an Army Repair Depot at the time) who had been hit 9 times with the 8X57mm (easily the equal of our 30-06) fired from an MG42, which fires pretty quick. He killed the gunner and then laid down to die but a medic came along and started filling him with plasma and plugging all the holes he could find and he was not that far from a field hospital... all of these hits were in the torso and he apparently lost quite a bit of "plumbing" but he was still alive some 30 years later. So much for shock and the "synergistic" effect of full auto fire...it doesn't get much better than an MG42. Nothing works all the time.

In fact, while I have had good luck with big bore handguns in the hunting fields, I don't think anything works as well as we would like to think. Especially if instant incapacitation is the goal.

We can discuss what works better but if I achieve nothing else of value here, let it be to get people to thinking that just shooting someone - either once or half a dozen times, is not necessarily going to completely solve the problem (it might eventually but perhaps not during the "rest of your life"). My advocacy here is to get people to incorporate other defensive tactics - like movement and use of cover - along with their marksmanship. Marksmanship itself is another of those much misunderstood skills - some folks labor under the delusion that it is merely hitting what they shoot for...wrong!

Now I am the one who is long winded :lol:
Thanks much for the input!!!
Cordially,
Jim H.
 
 
Old 04-06-2004, 07:00 AM   #74
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Jim,
thanks for the quick response. You hit it right on the head. 8)
 
Old 04-06-2004, 07:04 AM   #75
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Jim,
while I have your attention I have one more question. I have a sniper rifle that I need to camo and would like to camo it like the m4 I used in the army with a green pattarn and the one I had was like a satin unsmooth and it looked as though they just misted it on. I am sure you are familure with the way the spec-ops m4s look with the desert camo on. That is what I am after. I know this is for the rifle forum and I have a post over there to. If you could shed some light I would be greatful.
 
Old 04-06-2004, 07:27 AM   #76
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While I am not a big fan of statistics and averages (a man with one foot frozen in a block of ice and the other in a bucket of boiling watter is "comfortable...on average" :-? ), I do like to illustrate a point with an actual incident, by no means claiming that it happens that way all the time.

Early in a progam of practical competition we started many years ago, a fellow showed up who used a 4" Colt Trooper. He was clearly there to sharpen his marksmanship skills not to win trophies and he shot what he carried...handloads which pushed a 125gr JHP to right at 1500 fps (we chronographed the loads at the matches to eliminate whimp loads). Well he came to 3 or 4 matches, doing pretty fair since our courses were fairly realistic, and then we did not see him. 6 months or so later he contacted me and asked if he could attend some training. He then related his story:

Someone had burglarized his home earlier and was caught. Well one night at a business he ran into this gent (who of course was out on bail, even though he was already a convicted felon in other crimes). Words passed and the felon left, with our friend thinking nothing more (bad decision!). Well, when he left he actually ran right into the felon, who had retrieved a 4" .38 from his vehicle (yes of course it is illegal), in the doorway. The felon instantly fired at a distance of about 2 feet. Our guy (remember at this point he had no training) said he remembered thinking "how could he miss at this range?" (he didn't of course - the bullet actually went through one lung missing both the heart and the spine by only an inch!) while he drew his Trooper and centered the guys sternum with one of those "blue pill" .357 magnums. Since he had read how potent they were he said he expected the guy to do backflips and that is all he fired before looking to see the results...much to his surprise the guy was standing there...so he quickly fired another round before the other fellow thought to ( I suppose he was thinking the same thing but just slower). This one hit him in the Adam's apple and cut the spine which was effective.

This is but one example (I have dozens) in which the assumption that a well placed round will incapacitate instantly can get one in trouble. In this instance, the good guy was actually shot first but he could have easily been shot some more while waiting the parts of a second to see what his first bullet did. BTW, there was no failure on the part of that first .357 bullet, it did indeed hit the heart. It did not hit the spine, whether because it did not penetrate enough or was slightly off course I am not sure.

Something to ponder,
Best regards,
Jim Higginbotham
 
Old 04-06-2004, 07:38 AM   #77
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apcwes;
Actually, most of the ones I have seen were painted by the armorer of the unit. I am sure that there is some good spray paint in the system but you really don't have to have anything special. There are some flat "natural color" spray paints at walmart or other places (a good brand like Krylon would probably be better than the cheaper store brand).

Not sure exactly what pattern you want but I used greys, dark tan and green and sprayed a standard "mottled" pattern then I took leaves and pine boughs and covered the gun at random and then oversprayed it all with flat black (which left the foliage to come through as grey, tan or green). This wears a long time and is easily fixed if it gets scratched up. Don't take the finish off the gun, just degrease it and if you do after letting the gun warm up in the sun it will stick better. Mask the muzzle and keep the dust cover closed.

Hope this helps,
Jim H.
 
Old 04-06-2004, 07:59 AM   #78
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Jim, thanks for the info. I did not know at first if the spray paint was the right thing to use but I will try it.
 
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