9x23 vs 357 sig

Eugene D. Goodwin · 06-16-2001, 06:32 PM

O.K. I don't want to start a which is best etc but I recently have been shooting a range buddy's Glock32c in .357sig and man is that thing a hoot. Lots of sinus clearing muzzle blast but almost no recoil(subjective I know) and I can hit well with it.

So I guess my question would be:
What are the advantages and disadvantages of a bottle necked cartridge reaching those velocities vs. a thick straight walled case doing the same velocities? Heat exchange factors?

I feel the 9x23 has the reloading advantage because it uses almost the same set up as 9x19 but other than reloading all I can think would be different between them would be cycle rate and the feeding agle etc. in different guns which just makes them equals in most ways does it not?

what say ye? :smile:

Thanks,
Eugene

06-16-2001, 10:05 PM

Eugene,
Here is a post with my 9x23 and .357Sig data:

Quote:

The 9x23 is able to achieve very good performance in the factory loading using the Winchester silvertip round. This is in direct relation to the design of the 9x23 including velocities and energies. If we were to use a standard 9mm silvertip bullet, the round will under penetrate and fragment very quickly as the Winchester Silvertip 115gr 9mm +P+ bullet of days past averaged only 8” of penetration.
I have some fairly limited 9x23 tests but I have spent a fair number of hours testing the .357Sig from a 5" barrel 1911 and the factory .357 Sig velocities are within 5 - 50fps less than the 9x23 factory loadings.
In the 147gr XTP JHP the .357 Sig was a "deep" penetrator averaging 19" of gelatin penetration, I found that at higher velocities the .147gr Hornandy XTP loads did not expand to a larger diameter, they averaged .54-.58 expansion and penetrated to a longer depth. The same loading penetrated 15" from the shorter barrel of the Sig 229 and expanded to .55". I then switched to the excellent Speer Gold Dot 125gr JHP bullet, this load averaged 1,380fps from the P229 and 1,435fps from the 1911. From the Sig P229 the GD expanded to .67" and penetrated to 17". From the 1911 (w/Ed Brown barrel) the GD expanded to .68" and penetrated to 15".
The Winchester 125gr Ranger Talon (RA357SIGT) averaged 1,385fps from the Sig P229; it penetrated to 12" and expanded to .74".
The same loading from the 5" 1911 averaged 1,445fps, it penetrated to 11.5" and expanded to .76", it became very flat nosed.
It should be noted that all three rounds performed very well and not one of the bullets failed/fragmented.

I also tested the Corbon 115gr and 125gr load; they were very poor performers in my opinion as all loadings failed/fragmented from the Sig P229 and completely fragmented from the 1911.
The Corbon 115gr loading averaged 1505fps from the Sig P229, it penetrated (core) to 9” and completely failed/fragmented, the core measured .43”.
From the 5” 1911 it averaged 1,540fps, penetrated to 7.5” (core) and completely failed/fragmented, the core measured a smaller diameter of .41”, I suspect due to higher fragmentation.
The Corbon 125gr loading averaged 1,420fps, penetrated to 13” (core) failed/fragmented measured .40” from the Sig P229.
From the 1911 it averaged 1,460fps, penetrated to 11.5” (core) failed/fragmented, and measured .39”.
*Note: These appear to be the same Sierra JHP bullets Corbon uses in the .9mm loads.

My results may or may not equate to similar 9x23 results but it is fairly easy to see the patterns.

Eugene D. Goodwin · 06-17-2001, 10:09 AM

David,
Great info.

Was this post on this forum or elsewhere? I thought I checked all the posts that might have some .357sig comparisons but must have missed it if it was here.

So what I gather from this is that I was about right in that they are near equals. So what adventages would you, and others, find in 9x23 or .357sig as far as reloading or weapon choice go?

Thanks,
Eugene

Gonzo · 06-17-2001, 09:43 PM

Greetings,
Further on this matter, as my intent is to have a pistol built on a Caspian widebody frame:
1. Would the capacity be much greater with the 9x23 vs the .357 Sig?
2. Would there be cycling/feeding advantages with one cartidge over the other?
3. Would the performance of either round suffer considerably if the barrel length was only 3.6"?
4. Would high capcity magazines be difficult to locate for either cartridge?

Gonzo

jaydee · 06-18-2001, 11:14 AM

Quote:

On 2001-06-17 21:43, Gonzo wrote:
Greetings,
Further on this matter, as my intent is to have a pistol built on a Caspian widebody frame:
1. Would the capacity be much greater with the 9x23 vs the .357 Sig?
2. Would there be cycling/feeding advantages with one cartidge over the other?
3. Would the performance of either round suffer considerably if the barrel length was only 3.6"?
4. Would high capcity magazines be difficult to locate for either cartridge?

Gonzo

1) You'd probably get 2 more rounds with the 9x23.
2) It's probably a wash in a properly setup gun.
3) Again... Probably a wash.
4) 9x23 would use 38 Super mags, pretty easy to find... 357 Sig might also use 38 Super mags with a lip adjustment, but if there's 40/10mm mags available, they'd work too...

Good Luck...

Stiletto Raggio · 06-12-2006, 02:08 PM

I think the 9x23 is a superior round, but then, I am partial to things that are "different." Probably the biggest advantag I can see is in magazine capacity and the fact that a 9x19 barrel will allow very cheap practice. I think the 9x23 is a "sexier" round and is functionally superior; it also operates at higher chamber pressure than any other factory load (except, I think, the hottest .454 loads) .

Anyhow, it is one of those rounds that has a lot of versatility, especially with the heavier bullets, and especially for the handloader.

bobclevenger · 08-11-2015, 04:51 AM

In any given pistol type the magazine will hold about 50% more 9x23 Win. rounds than .357 Sig rounds. The same weight bullets will exit the muzzle at nearly the same velocity (assuming the same barrel length).
The .357 Sig might have an edge in feeding reliability due to the bottleneck shape, but once you get nearly 100% reliable function (nothing is perfect) there just isn't much room for improvement.

I measured a 125 gr. 9x23 Win. bullet at 1600 fps out of a 4.5"barrel. The same load measured 1450 fps out of a 3.6" Magnaported barrel. Both were on an EAA Witness frame carrying 17 rounds in the mag.

The 9x23 Winchester can do anything the .357 Sig can do, and do it more times between mag changes. The only drawback is that the grip length has to be a little longer for the 9x23, but no larger than a .45 acp or .38 Super.

Yeah, I like the 9x23 Winnchester.

Brian D. · 08-12-2015, 02:12 PM

Hello Bob. You must have gotten hold of a LONG handled shovel to dig up this 14 year old thread. Wonder if the original particpants are even alive now?

Not dinging you Bob it's just that none of these threads ever die off or go int an archive mode. Sometimes people don't look close and think they are joining a conversation still in progress.

bobclevenger · 08-12-2015, 02:56 PM

Yeah, I knew it was an old thread, but the comments I made are still as valid as they ever were (or weren't). I keep trying to drum up interest in the 9x23 Win.

Brian D. · 08-19-2015, 02:23 PM

Bob I had a couple year dalliance with the 9x23. Nothing wrong with the caliber but hated it when empty cases got lost at the range.

A Colt 1991 in .38 super was my carry gun at the time, 9x23 ammo ran through it just fine without pressure issues. The gun actually grouped better with both factory and reload 9x23 than .38 super of any kind.

Eventually I just lost interest and moved on onto 10 mm as a new caliber to load for carry use in places with bears, mountain lions, and other dangerous critters that believe THEY live at the top of the food chain.

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06-16-2001, 06:32 PM	#1
Eugene D. Goodwin Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 269	O.K. I don't want to start a which is best etc but I recently have been shooting a range buddy's Glock32c in .357sig and man is that thing a hoot. Lots of sinus clearing muzzle blast but almost no recoil(subjective I know) and I can hit well with it. So I guess my question would be: What are the advantages and disadvantages of a bottle necked cartridge reaching those velocities vs. a thick straight walled case doing the same velocities? Heat exchange factors? I feel the 9x23 has the reloading advantage because it uses almost the same set up as 9x19 but other than reloading all I can think would be different between them would be cycle rate and the feeding agle etc. in different guns which just makes them equals in most ways does it not? what say ye? :smile: Thanks, Eugene

06-17-2001, 10:09 AM	#3
Eugene D. Goodwin Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 269	David, Great info. Was this post on this forum or elsewhere? I thought I checked all the posts that might have some .357sig comparisons but must have missed it if it was here. So what I gather from this is that I was about right in that they are near equals. So what adventages would you, and others, find in 9x23 or .357sig as far as reloading or weapon choice go? Thanks, Eugene

06-17-2001, 09:43 PM	#4
Gonzo Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 130	Greetings, Further on this matter, as my intent is to have a pistol built on a Caspian widebody frame: 1. Would the capacity be much greater with the 9x23 vs the .357 Sig? 2. Would there be cycling/feeding advantages with one cartidge over the other? 3. Would the performance of either round suffer considerably if the barrel length was only 3.6"? 4. Would high capcity magazines be difficult to locate for either cartridge? Gonzo

06-12-2006, 02:08 PM	#6
Stiletto Raggio Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 10	I think the 9x23 is a superior round, but then, I am partial to things that are "different." Probably the biggest advantag I can see is in magazine capacity and the fact that a 9x19 barrel will allow very cheap practice. I think the 9x23 is a "sexier" round and is functionally superior; it also operates at higher chamber pressure than any other factory load (except, I think, the hottest .454 loads) . Anyhow, it is one of those rounds that has a lot of versatility, especially with the heavier bullets, and especially for the handloader.

08-11-2015, 04:51 AM	#7
bobclevenger Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 17	In any given pistol type the magazine will hold about 50% more 9x23 Win. rounds than .357 Sig rounds. The same weight bullets will exit the muzzle at nearly the same velocity (assuming the same barrel length). The .357 Sig might have an edge in feeding reliability due to the bottleneck shape, but once you get nearly 100% reliable function (nothing is perfect) there just isn't much room for improvement. I measured a 125 gr. 9x23 Win. bullet at 1600 fps out of a 4.5"barrel. The same load measured 1450 fps out of a 3.6" Magnaported barrel. Both were on an EAA Witness frame carrying 17 rounds in the mag. The 9x23 Winchester can do anything the .357 Sig can do, and do it more times between mag changes. The only drawback is that the grip length has to be a little longer for the 9x23, but no larger than a .45 acp or .38 Super. Yeah, I like the 9x23 Winnchester.

08-12-2015, 02:12 PM	#8
Brian D. Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 489	Hello Bob. You must have gotten hold of a LONG handled shovel to dig up this 14 year old thread. Wonder if the original particpants are even alive now? Not dinging you Bob it's just that none of these threads ever die off or go int an archive mode. Sometimes people don't look close and think they are joining a conversation still in progress.

08-12-2015, 02:56 PM	#9
bobclevenger Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 17	Yeah, I knew it was an old thread, but the comments I made are still as valid as they ever were (or weren't). I keep trying to drum up interest in the 9x23 Win.

08-19-2015, 02:23 PM	#10
Brian D. Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 489	Bob I had a couple year dalliance with the 9x23. Nothing wrong with the caliber but hated it when empty cases got lost at the range. A Colt 1991 in .38 super was my carry gun at the time, 9x23 ammo ran through it just fine without pressure issues. The gun actually grouped better with both factory and reload 9x23 than .38 super of any kind. Eventually I just lost interest and moved on onto 10 mm as a new caliber to load for carry use in places with bears, mountain lions, and other dangerous critters that believe THEY live at the top of the food chain.