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Old 10-12-2005, 04:44 PM   #11
 
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Well, many myths have a substantial basis in fact. :wink:

And there's a reason why the 9mm used to be called the "Wonder Nine" back in the 80s ...

During a shoot-out, a cop would empty his mag into an armed perp and "wonder" why the guy was still standing, firing back. Then said cop would "wonder" why his department couldn't have chosen some other caliber. :-?

Of course, if the cop survived the encounter, you next saw him armed with a .45 or 10mm autoloader, or even a magnum revolver.

That's how you could always identify a veteran LEO who had real gunfighting experience. His 9mm was long gone and he'd upgraded to a more potent cartridge. :P

8)
 
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Old 10-12-2005, 06:21 PM   #12
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Hello. I don't trust any of the calibers commonly used for self-protection be they 9mm or .45 ACP. Seen both work splendidly and both fail miserably. Ditto .38 and .357 magnum.

Given equivalent ammunition, I personally believe that the .45 is probably "better" than the 9mm, but I do not believe it is by as much as is sometimes stated.

I interviewed and obtained medical assistance for a woman who'd outrun her
common-law spouse after he shot her twice through the upper left chest with a .45. A few years earlier, I was involved in a case where a BG with a knife got popped through the heart with a .25 and dropped dead right then and there.

Was a police firearm instructor for 11 years. Saw some darned good shooters, but also saw a minority with high-capacity 9mm and .40's that substituted speed for accuracy. They didn't score well on the range in the long run and more importantly, on the street.

9mm has failures to be sure. They all do. Pick the one you can hit with and trust be it a 9mm, .357 magnum, .357 SIG, .40, 10mm or whatever. I think that the most important determinant remains the actual willingness to accurately and effectively use the handgun against another human coupled with the skill to do it. Friends still in LE who have used their 9mm's are still using them to this day.

Best.



 
Old 10-13-2005, 06:39 AM   #13
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Gee, this most be the most civilized stopping power thread I've ever read. Nice work, gents!
 
 
Old 10-13-2005, 06:59 AM   #14
 
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A couple of years ago I got to talk to a cusins's husband who was in the rescue team for what we now know as "BlackHawk Down." He was a medic with the 10th Mtn. Div. His observation was that it took at least three hits from the 9mm to get someone down.


On a more personal level a few years ago I had to shot a raccon to get the dogs to be quiet for the night. I shot a 230 grn Hydra-Shock at about seven -FEET- out of my officers model and got a good hit near the spine. The 'coon weighed about -TWELVE- pounds and the bullet did not exit. The shot swept the 'coon off the top of the fence post where she was tree'd by the dogs, like a pin in a pin match. She then laid on the ground for a couple of seconds and then ran back to the top of the fence post!! My black lab then looked at me as to say thanks, and then used her teeth to finish the matter. Now this is one of -THE- rounds for the .45, that some say have 95% stoping rate in humans... As you can see YMMV.

My best guest is that many humans are mentally conditioned to over react to a gun shot wound. Animals have no such conditioning and thus are harder to kill. If the 'coon had only read Guns and Ammo she would have known better than to fight for her life, because it should have been over. This is one of the reasons that persons under the influnce of some substance or mental illness are hader to stop, they do not have the mental trigger to stop.
 
Old 10-13-2005, 08:03 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silver
<snip>
My best guest is that many humans are mentally conditioned to over react to a gun shot wound. Animals have no such conditioning and thus are harder to kill. If the 'coon had only read Guns and Ammo she would have known better than to fight for her life, because it should have been over. This is one of the reasons that persons under the influnce of some substance or mental illness are hader to stop, they do not have the mental trigger to stop.
My best guess is that yours is a pretty good guess

I have had a bit of experience with racoons myself. I certainly learned that frangible .223 does not work well on even small critters with normal bullet placement...at least not from the angle I was shooting.

Onward,
Jim
 
Old 10-13-2005, 09:52 AM   #16
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This is a great thread...

Stephen is correct in saying anything can and will fail....

I was elk hunting with a friend who was shooting blackpowder (modern power levels), using
a massive round (I believe it was .577, but it's been a few years ops: ). He got a great
frontal chest hit that exited out of the elks rump, we found out later, with plenty of internal
damage. He dropped in his tracks. We waited about 10 minutes, and as he hadn't twitched,
we decided to approach him. We got about 20 feet away, and he stood up and ran like a
banshee. Wayne hadn't reloaded, BTW, but he corrected this oversight this time. We tracked
him for almost a mile (a guesstimate...), before finding him in a patch of thick bramble. Wayne
took another shot, this one broadside, that went through and through his heart and lungs.
After a just-in-case reload, we waited a good 20 minutes before approaching. We walked up
to the elk, and again he stood up, albeit a bit unsteadily, and trotted away....this time Wayne
got a parting shot into him, up the backside, which ruined his hind leg. But, trooper he was,
and lumbered off into town (Flagstaff, AZ). We finally tracked him down, near dusk...he'd
laid down and died in someone's backyard! All the wounds created 2 holes each, and lots
of damage, including broken bones, yet like a timex-he kept on ticking. I'm awfully glad
that he didn't have a gun to shoot back, 'cause he would have been the Terminator!

Just goes to show you, doesn't matter what you're shooting, it may or may not work.
I'd say shoot the gun you shoot the best, that is the most reliable, put the holes where
they need to go and hope for the best. If you decide to shoot a 'minor' caliber, just
don't fall for the trap of spray and pray, just because you've got a bunch of rounds-make
each shot count!
 
Old 10-14-2005, 03:43 PM   #17
 
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"...it took at least three hits from the 9mm to get someone down."

Actually, that's a better ratio of rounds-expended-to-incapacitated-bad-guy than has been the experience for U.S. law enforcement with the 9-minimeter.

Frequently during a gunfight a cop would be forced to reload his 9mm pistol with a second or third 15-rd magazine - which meant that either: (1) he's missing the bad guy A LOT, or (2) he's hitting him but the rounds are having no immediate incapacitiating effect. Whichever, it wasn't going to be a good day.

So 3 hits from a 9-minimeter to put down a Somali isn't too bad. Sounds better than the 15-to-30 rds required here in the land of the free.

Maybe American born & bred BGs just require the good guys to use a bit larger and/or more powerful cartridge. 8)
 
Old 10-14-2005, 04:10 PM   #18
 
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So 3 hits from a 9-minimeter to put down a Somali isn't too bad. Sounds better than 15-to-30 rds required here in the land of the free.

Maybe American born & bred BGs just require the good guys to use a bit larger and/or more powerful cartridge. 8)[/quote]


Maybe the Somali's aren't as stupid? :roll:
 
Old 10-14-2005, 04:20 PM   #19
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Hello. Having been a police firearm instructor for 11 years, I think there is more than a casual relationship between "stopping power" for officers that will actually shoot another person in the vitals coupled with the skill to do it vs
those just barely qualifying.

Best.



 
Old 10-15-2005, 02:38 AM   #20
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Shot placement is critical. I don't care what some fans of the 45 ACP say, a 45 hit in the hand is not going to spin the perp around and knock him down. The one shot stop statistics that many point to really are not statistics, but just a bunch of data points. Every shooting will be different, every human will react differently. Use what you can shoot the best and just be the best with what you shoot.
 
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