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Old 09-30-2005, 07:06 AM   #11
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 93
About ten years ago I was asking the same questions and getting the same answers that you should not be satisfied with. Many people, even those who should know better (like some police trainers), try and just John Wayne the answers.

1) Mil-spec means lowest bidder. I have an 870 done by SGT which is now a part of Wilson. I also keep an Ithica 37 police model as a spare.

2) Get Louis Awerbuck's book on shotguns and take his class. It takes lots of patterning and some adult suppervision to get the most out of the gun.

3) You are morally and legally responceable for every pellet that goes out of the gun. Each gun and barrel shoots a pattern that also varies with shot type, load, as well as maker. As your pellet count increaces so does your liablity. Also as flip side of the coin when the pellet count goes down your pattern may get more holes and flyers also increasing your liablity. See not on patterning above.

4) Again you are morally and leagly responceable for each and every pellet you shoot. This means you need to a tighter control on the pattern. As a pratical matter this means you have to A use more choke than most people "think" or B limit the range to closer than most people "think". In fact doing both is a good idea. Think about a whole pattern that is like a paper plate size rather than a goose pattern.

5) The goose size pattern means that you are putting pellets into not vitial areas or even blowing past the target into??? Again we need to come back to the pie plate size group.

6) In Louise's class you will run through a hostage shooting senerio complete with realistic target and hostage that are moving about. I tried the "easy" shot of a load of buckshot to the pelvis and got a pellet in the babydoll that was the hostage. Hmmm Slugs only next time...


7) At close range even bird shot will go through a couple of layers of drywall and osb. You have the same liablity so you might as well move up to something with some stopping power (IE will break a bone). A -SINGLE- pellet of 00 buck shot is about like a .32 acp at over 25 yards.


8) The basic things the gun needs are good set of sights (that means tritium rifle to most of us) and a sling. Many people use old and cheap rubber bands like from a news paper to keep the sling out of the way.

9) The gun should be -DEDICATED- to defence 24/7. That means a flashlight forend and no duck barrel. No, whining, any other gun can be used for hunting and back up.

10) Make a list of the shots in your home. Put them on paper by description and draw them out. Use those notes to pratice them.
 
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Old 09-30-2005, 09:10 AM   #12
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Those are some very good points, silver!

Additionally, you can 'armor' your house by putting in bookshelves (full), or putting up sheet
metal sheets, under your wallpaper or texture, in areas most likely to be a backstop. The sheet
metal probably won't completely stop full-power loadings, but will reduce the hazard some-
naturally this won't help with slugs.....

Now that you can buy a Bar-Sto Vang-Comp barrel from Brownells, why wouldn't you?
 
Old 09-30-2005, 04:36 PM   #13
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Buffalo, Wyoming
Posts: 26
From what you are wanting the shotgun for, get a Remington 870. Load with 00 buck. Take it to a gunsmith that can ream the forcing cone. By doing that you should easily be able to make headshots from seven yards and keep all pellets in the head, if you need to. A lighted forend from Surefire would make it even better. Then go to the range and practice, practice, and practice some more. Think about it, it's 0300, you are dead asleep, and someone breaks into your house. How long does it take for you to realise what is happening, then to decide what action to take, and finally its time to clear your house. By this time they might be walking through your bedroom door. Go practice!!! You don't need a complicated shotgun in this scenario. I carried an 870 and a Benali M1 Super 90 on duty into some ugly situations. The 870 was the best most reliable and with practice you can "double tap" almost as fast. I would not suggest slugs for inner home defence. Hope that helps.
 
 
Old 09-30-2005, 08:50 PM   #14
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I think I am going to have to agree with Hoser about going out into your home looking for the bad guy. Even if you know what you're doing and how to move through your home limiting your exposure, why do it? Let the guy take what he wants, that's what homeowners insurance is for. My plan is to call the police, and wait with my Winchester 1300 and .357. As for weapons choice, go with what feels right to you and has the controls where you are most comfortable so that you can develop the necessary muscle memory faster. When I went through CQB school, we were switching from the Mossberg 590s to the Benelli M1014s as our primary shotguns, but when I got to my next duty station, we had cut-down Remington 870 and Winchester 1200 bird-guns. Personally, I was happy with this arrangement, as I've always liked Winchester shotguns since my first firearm, a 1300 Ranger Youth Model 20ga. Most any of the shotguns on the market are going to serve you just as well as another. We gave up the 590s because they didn't hold up to the number of rounds we were firing, but a civilian or law enforcement officer is highly unlikely to ever fire that many rounds, which is why I will still recommend them as a good weapon. Most all of my buddies have 870s, which, as expected, always function. Since I happen to be pre-disposed to the Winchester, my breaching shotgun is a Marine Stainless model in a kydex quiver I made. When I'm not deployed, the 1300 is my home defense shotgun. The only downside to this setup is that I have to have a pistol grip on my 1300 since it is in the quiver as a breaching tool/backup to my primary. I, being a rifleman first, think a pistol grip only is about useless on a shotgun unless it is the only way you can make it small enough to keep it available. As soon as I leave my current billet, my 1300 is getting a full-stock, again. A common issue at CQB school is coming around a corner with an M1014, M16, or M4 and the instructor grabbing the muzzle and pushing up to wrench it out of your hands. Not much you can do with a pistol grip to stop him, but if you send the shotgunner in first with a straight stock, and the instructor tries the same thing, the shotgunner's hands are in a position where he can execute a buttstroke to the aggressor. But, these are just my thoughts on home defense, and may not be your ideal approach.
-RHM
 
Old 10-05-2005, 04:51 AM   #15
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 93
With a pistol griped shotgun when some one grabs the muzzle try bringing your elbow back like you are jabbing somebody in the ribs. The person on the muzzle end may just find themselves in the backwards Isocloles triangle. In real life you may be able to get a contact wound to the arm or wrist.
 
Old 10-05-2005, 05:18 AM   #16
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by M. Hall
Those are some very good points, silver!

Additionally, you can 'armor' your house by putting in bookshelves (full), or putting up sheet
metal sheets, under your wallpaper or texture, in areas most likely to be a backstop. The sheet
metal probably won't completely stop full-power loadings, but will reduce the hazard some-
naturally this won't help with slugs.....


Now that you can buy a Bar-Sto Vang-Comp barrel from Brownells, why
wouldn't you?
Think about tilebacker board and Advantech. If you have a hollow wall some pea gravel may help.

While I have read many good reviews on the Vang-Comp Barrel, I have unanswered questions as well. I will not "dis" a product I have so little experince with. My main question is how if you have little choke to begin with does removing more choke truly tighten the pattern. I understand that the shaping of the choke (ie back boring) may improve the pattern from the stand point of flyers. That is not the samething as tighening the choke. Last time I looked (a few years ago) Robar would do the samething for about the same money. The differance being that Robbie said they would tailor the backbore to the -YOUR-load.

My barrel is lined to modified. It works very well and is paid for, therefore, I'm not reinventing the wheel.
 
Old 10-05-2005, 06:53 AM   #17
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My last Vang-Comp 870 grouped very tight with very little spread in 'house-ranges'. I don't
claim to know what is involved, only what I've experienced as a result (though mine was not a
Bar-Sto barrel). It was a very accurate gun with a very nice even pattern at mid distances...
 
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