|12-15-2006, 06:30 PM||#1|
Join Date: Nov 2006
Glock vs XD
I originally posted this as a reply to an XD review and the subsequent replies of 'omg the XD is sooooo much better than the Glock rofl' I couldn't take it and had to put some things out there. Enjoy!
One thing the XD is superior to the Glock in is handle diameter and that's only for people with short fingers. That's it. Other reasons given to the XD's superiority are subjective to opinion and nothing else.
A few of the given 'reasons' XDs are better I read in this post:
Price. I work in at a gun shop and at a range, the Glock is about $80 more than the XD. I don't know many people who think $80 is something to worry about with something that protects your life.
Machining quality/manufacture. At both of my occupations I have XDs come back for warranty work (sometimes complete replacement due to inability to repair). Cracked frames, ftf, stovepiping, chambers needing to be honed. The list goes on and on.
Durability. Like the aforementioned reason - it's false. Most people have this opinion based on only having a few thousand (if that) rounds through their XDs. At the range we are constantly having problems with our XD rentals (see previous reason problems) while our Glocks usually run about 100,000 rounds through them before we cycle a new one into the mix. Those are 100,000 trouble free rounds. Consistently. Wait a few more years when all of these XDs get some real use.
Ergonomics. XD likes to tout this one in their advertising as well saying that when you point it the sights line up rather than having you look at the top of the slide. Glock went with their 105 degree handle angle for a reason: they tested, tested and did some more testing and found that it provided the best firing results for accuracy and following shots. The XD's handle angle along with its high barrel axis to the hand provide much more muzzle flip than a Glock which in turn means less accurate double-taps and a less control.
Single action vs double action. The Glock uses the double action for safety. It's one of the reasons it's called Safe-Action. If the striker spring isn't cocked - it can't fire! Just like a down hammer. The XD has a cocked spring. You can count on replacing the striker spring many more times in an XD than a Glock because of this. You also better hope your firing pin block is in proper working order or you're at the mercy of the poorly designed sear of the XD which, by the way, will fire out of battery. Try pushing back on the slide sometime while pulling the trigger. The double action might not be as smooth, clean or as short a pull of the single action, but these are service pistols not target pistols.
The slide lock. The slide lock on the Glock is designed to be tight against the frame and slide as to not be snagged on anything. They also wanted people to use two hands to release the slide because it's a more controlled manner than hitting the lock with your thumb. This isn't the movies! Release the slide the proper way. The slide lock on the XD also adds a decent amount to the overall width of the weapon - not very carry friendly.
Finish. People, Tenifer is not the outside coating. Tenifer is the metal treatment of the slide and barrel itself. It is .005 mm thick and is close the the hardness of diamond. The treatment of the metal itself acheives a 99.9% salt water resistance. Tenifer is also illegal in this country because the EPA. XD does not have it. Don't regularly oil the slide on your XD and carry it in a cold climate for a while. The in/out condensation will rust your slide in no time.
Warranty. Good thing Sprinfield has you covered here, you're going to need it.
Field stripping. The Glock actually uses a faster process which uses less steps than the XD. Also, many people rotate the take-down lever then pull the slide lock down putting all forward inertia of the slide to come to a halt against the sear (it's the only thing keeping the slide from going forward at that point) and cause damage to the sear, striker and frame.
Loaded chamber indicator. Glock has this as well. Wake up.
Cocked indicator. Glock has this as well. If the trigger is forward on a Glock, it's cocked. Also, how are you going to get a round into the chamber on either of these guns without it being cocked? It's not a Walther with a decocker.
Grip safety. How is a gun going to go off without your hand on the handle? Your finger should never be inside the trigger guard unless you have the weapon acquired and intend to fire. Are we forgetting some basic fire arm rules? The grip safety is null and void.
Customization. If you can't find genuine Glock custom parts for your Glock at your local gun dealer, you need to find a new one. Glock holsters, parts and accessories are everywhere. Try to find a holster for you XD. It's much more difficult. Yes, it's newer and takes a while, but companies will be reluctant to make them because Springfield supplies you with one, albeit a horrible one with not one level of retention.
I felt the need to debunk these XD/Glock myths. The XD is not even close the being up to par with the Glock. The Glock is going on 20 years now and has changed the world of pistols - the XD won't make that sort of impact.
|01-16-2007, 12:53 PM||#2|
Join Date: Feb 2004
I'm glad somebody has shined a knowledgeable light on this issue, I agree with most of what you say with the exception of a few things. I am qualified to comment on this because I own and know both of these handguns having been inside them for several modifications.
Both of these handguns are overpriced, especially the Glock with it's 35 or so plastic and cheesy looking stamped steel drop in parts (that work forever)- great design and drop in is great for interchangeability and manufacturing cost cutting. But they could sell this gun much cheaper than they do.
I work in plastic manufacturing and would not be surprised if the mark up on these guns (especially the Glock) was triple what it cost to make it. I have a hard time paying $600 for a plastic/stamped steel gun. But the fact that this gun flat RUNS takes a lot of the sting out of it.
I have raced both of these guns for thousands of rounds and I can shine some light on a few things you left out. One big one is TRIGGER RESET: the trigger reset on on XD just plain SUCKS! Now the break is MUCH better than a Glock, when both of these guns are tweaked by a gunsmith to get them as good as they can get the Glock wins hands down because the reset is probably about 1/2 what an XD is.
And before all you XD guys say "send your gun to Canyon Creek and all your problems will be solved. Both of my XD's went to Rich Dettonhouser (Canyon Creek) to work his magic. Rich does outstanding work and both my XD40 and XD9 tacticals have excellent trigger pulls now with about 1/2 the reset they originally had BUT THEY'RE STILL TWICE AS LONG AS MY GLOCKS. You can't remanufacture the whole gun.
This is the reason I'm using Glocks now in competition. Trigger reset. I'm an ex 1911 shooter that got sick and tired of dealing with the malfunctions that occur far too often with a 1911. A little background: I'm 49 years old and have been shooting for most of my natural life, I've had so many 1911's I'd have to think hard to remember them all. Many of them including my current ones are expensive heavily massaged custom guns. They do NOT work well out of the box, if you think your 1911 works as well as one of these plastic wonders you are probably NOT racing it and you won't know how well it works until you do compete with it. It is an eye opener to say the least.
An out of the box Glock or XD will SMOKE any 1911 I've EVER had for reliability- it was a HARD pill to swallow but that's where I'm at now.
The deciding moment when I switched from XD's to Glocks was on a fast stage that had a lateral moving target that crossed behind 3 non-threat targets and you had like 6 seconds to draw (from concealment) and put (too many) rounds on this target. I drew well but ended up pulling air for some of my shots because of the LONG reset on the XD. This stage whooped everyone. I had gotten used to the XD (so I thought) but that stage just cemented my switch to Glock. If I'd have been a revolver shooter prior to the XD I probably would not have switched. I'm just SO spoiled on that 1911 trigger which will never be bettered by any handgun I could think of and I've shot them all.
Ergonomics: Whenever I tried someones Glock I was looking at the top of the slide when I came out of the holster. Not the XD because the grip angle is the same as my beloved unreliable 1911. I always thought it would take me forever to get used to the Glock grip angle. Not an issue, I transitioned in about 2 or 3 dry firing sessions and never looked back. As you stated Wayne there was a lot of research put into the choice of the OPTIMUM grip angle by Gaston Glock, if the 1911/XD has the best grip angle then one only needs to look at any Olympic free pistol to debunk that theory.
The truth is Glocks do have less muzzle flip than XD/1911's. The combination of the definately lower bore axis AND the grip angle make for a very flip free gun in rapid fire. Side by side with identical loads you can feel and see the difference.
Firing out of battery: Glock is the one that has a reputation for this, I don't know if it is deserved but I do know this; I've examined guns on the range and have come across a few Glocks that could be dry fired very slightly out of battery. This is possible with many guns and should be checked. Glocks go back in battery smoother than any gun out there though even the XD because of the reduced friction of the design and much small slide rail contact.
Wayne you kind of left out the polygonal rifling that Glock has and how they can lead up and cause pressures to go through the roof (several blown up Glocks are a testament to that). I happen to like polygonal rifling because it deforms the bullet less and seals better than cut rifling. But you'd better adhere to Glocks warning (particularly in the 40) about NOT using non jacketed bullets in their guns. This can happen very quickly depending on the hardness of the bullet surface.
I think the XD has the advantage if your a reloader like me. Having said that, I'm now using a G34 and using WWB because it's so cheap, it ain't worth my time to reload 9mm.
Releasing the slide the "proper way". Glock never intended to have the "slide release" used as one. They want you to pull back on the slide. You're right Wayne this isn't the movies, but the proper way would be whatever way gets you shot the least. And that happens to usually be dropping the slide using the slide release which is probably why the G34 G35 have EXTENDED slide releases. Some guys are really fast at racking the slide but it's just not efficient.
Your comment on the XD slide release has no merit, this 5" gun conceals very nicely in my IWB holster under a t-shirt. So does my G35. The slide on an XD is bulkier-the grip on a Glock is bulkier. It evens out.
Finish: I don't believe there is any better than a Glock they wear FOREVER and even after 1/2 a million draws from a kydex holster my G34 is still looking way newer than anything else I've used that much. You're very correct about the Tenifer being a metal treatment and not a surface treatment. I don't know what is they put on the surface but it's WAY better than the clearly substandard (parkerised?)coating on an XD slide- both mine are rusting by the way. They really have a deserved rep for that. If you get an XD plan on having it coated. Tenifer is illegal in the US, too bad.
I've heard range reports on rentals for both guns with the same amount of rounds through them and seems they are similar. There are some HS2000's out there that have a buttload of rounds through them. And the famous Glock torture test was done on the XD as well and it passed with flying colors. Having said that I think as cheesy as the Glock looks to me I'd have to give the nod to Glock in durability, it works a lot better than it looks like it should.
I agree with the grip safety comment, don't get me started on grip safeties. They should have left it off this gun, in their defense it does present less problems than the 1911 grip safety but nevertheless....
That's one thing I've always loved about the Glock-SIMPLE IS GOOD. The Glock is a very safe gun and it's simple. If you hang too many things on the gun to go wrong- they will.
They're are plenty of good holsters made for the XD now, I had NO PROBLEM finding 2 right off the bat. One I got from Comp TAC and the other from Ready Tactical. The parts are still forthcoming though. I hope the gaining popularity of the S&W M&P doesn't take some of the wind out of the XD's sails. It's a fine gun.
Bottom line is the XD is very close to being up to par with the Glock IMO but you're probably right about the XD not making the impact that Glock did because of the timing not because it's inferior in some way.
There aren't as many XD's as Glocks in my club so I can only offer limited accounts of reliability and this is RACING Wayne not standing there popping at one target slow fire- BIG DIFFERENCE, you will never know how good a gun works until you RACE IT. Both the XD's and Glocks seem to work VERY well in that arena although I've noticed far too many malfunctions with the 45 Glocks and almost none with any other Glocks and we have a LOT of Glocks. Glock was designed around the 9mm cartridge and the farther you stray from that I suspect reliability will suffer.
My XD experience is limited to the 8 or so we have running in the matches that all seem to do fine. It doesn't seem like any of the top shooters with the exception of 1 STAY with the XD though, and this guy is a revolver shooter- go figure.
|01-16-2007, 01:29 PM||#3|
Join Date: Nov 2006
A very nice, informative and well thought out reply.
You're right, I did forget to mention anything about the polygonal rifling in the Glock. If you reload or want to run lead through your GLock (or HK) you need to switch to a lands and grooves (insert favorite barrel manufacturer here) barrel.
I agree that they could drop the price of Glocks. The plastic gun manufacturers seem to be getting away with murder on their prices IE: Keltec's toy .380/32s going for $250 or Kahr's pocket rockets for $600.
I don't know how much stock I put into the Glock torture tests at this point. It seems as though most manufacturers are running their weapons through similar tests and passing fine. You can also find weapon tests on guns that make the Glock/HK tests look tame IE: the CZ P-01.
The M&P is taking wind out of the XD sails already from what I can tell. Everybody used to always come in looking for the XDs and now they're all coming in looking for the M&P. A magazine or two comes out with a 'Wow!' article and everybody has got to have one all of a sudden. There are things about that weapon I like and things I hate; at least it isn't a Sigma. I suspect in a few more months the Kimber KPD will catch on as well and flood the market robbing Glock and Springfield of market share.
The thing that scares me the most these days is new legislation.
That's my two-cents for the day.
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|01-16-2007, 02:02 PM||#4|
Join Date: Oct 2004
My 2% on the subject
I have the XD-45 Service also a Glock23 and both have been problem free. But I know the Glocks finish is of higer quality then the finish used on the XD it might be somewhat like Tenifer but it's not as good as Tenifer. I also like the External Extractor the Glocks use not saying the XDs Internal Extractor is a problem I just think the Glock Extractor is a better design for the long run. In the smaller XDs .40/9mm there has been problems the larger 45s have been showing better service with less reported repairs needed. I am waiting to see how the new Glock 21 .45acp that was at the Shot Show works with the slimmer grip and 13 round Mag. Think if it works good I will buy one. Glock sells their 22 to the Law enforcments for around $350 I have read so selling them to the rest of us for $500 is a Rip IMHO but they do sell a lot of them to everyone. Bottom line I like the XD-45 Service but you won't see me selling my trusty Glock23.
|01-17-2007, 10:41 PM||#5|
Join Date: Aug 2006
XD vs Glock/Glock price
I'm a .........Glock only person. However, I've tried to keep up with what is available out there. I've shot the XDs in all models available. I was impressed with the ease of handling and accuracy right out of the box. THAT was the end! Magazines were an initial problem. Where did you find them? Well, you had to order them.......and they were almost twice as expensive as a Glock mag. Holsters were a problem also. But, in time, those became available. And then the nifty extras such as magwells and extended controls became available.
The thing that turned me completely off to an XD of any kind........happened to a friend of mine. He had a new XD 45acp. After a couple hundred rounds, the rear of the magazines started "splitting". Being an avid shooter himself, he tried to diagnose the problem. Coundn't find what was happening. the rear of the magazine wasn't bulging, no marks, NOTHING! He called Springfield and told them of the problem. They didn't ask questions, didn't diagnose the problem, didn't ask him to send those magazines to be examined, didn't even ask what ammo he was using. Their response was "OK, we will send you two new ones". To me, that meant that they had already seen this problem and knew that it could happen. He was glad to get the new mags, but set the weapon aside as a "bedside companion" for his wife (he packs a 1911). BECAUSE, AFTER A COUPLE HUNDRED ROUNDS, THOSE TWO NEW MAGS STARTED SPLITTING ALSO!
On Glock prices, being a veteran police officer, I can tell you about the Glock Law Enforcement discount. Glock offers an excellent discount to Law Enforcement Officers. I've bought four of mine that way. But I have yet to find a new Glock for $350. The cheapest I've seen is $380 plus tax. And that is for the small frame. The large frames and the Tactical/Practical are about $100 more and the 6" is much, much higher. Depending on the dealer, Springfield has a 10% discount which puts it about $30 cheaper than a Glock. But is it worth it? With mags that are prone to split? Plus, nobody has hit upon "capacity". Why would anyone want a full size 40 cal that only holds 12 rounds???????? And as far as I have seen, nobody is making a magazine that holds more than that for the XD. Glock is 15 rounds out of the box. More depending on what type of extension a person would put on.
There are too many advantages with the Glock. I guess that's the reason it has been around as long as it has!
Just my thoughts on the matter.[/i]
|01-18-2007, 08:07 AM||#6|
Join Date: Feb 2004
This is the first I've heard of mag problems with the XD but then again I haven't been on the forums much since I switched over to Glock. I will say this I have 24 mags for my 2 XDs to compete with and the 12 that I ran to death in my XD9 were completely trouble free in operation & reliability.
The only problem I had was the way the top front is made (the part that goes right under the feed ramp) is unsupported and a few of them occaisionally got bent in from ejecting them onto the concrete floor on our indoor range when I shoot IDPA. They just required being bent back with a pair of pliers that I kept in my range bag. I had to keep an eye on them.
As you would expect continuous 4' drops on to industrial hardness concrete would be hard on magazines. I kept breaking the base pads on my Tripp/Cobra mags for my 1911 and Virgil Tripp (Tripp Research) kept replacing them for free-good guy.
The Glock mags being covered in polymer are as you would expect holding up very well. The only problem I can see so far with the Glocks is the catch slot getting burred up from so many emergency mag changes but so far not a burp. That is a well known "issue" with these mags & Glock will not replace them I'm told unless the mag won't catch at all any more. I don't see that happening.
I'll take another look at my XD mags which I got for $21 each. My Glocks were $13 each from Botach. Great deal. I don't remember even seeing anything on the back that could crack. I don't recall if the 45 mags were rear or side hole mags. Where exactly did they crack and was it a serious crack?
|01-18-2007, 12:47 PM||#7|
Join Date: Aug 2006
It was the XD 45acp mags and they "split" at the top, in the rear where the seam was. I haven't seen any 9mm or 40 mags do the same yet, but the 45acp sure seemed to be a problem! My thoughts were that the slide was pushing the next case in line. Possibly due to the angle, it was "catching" on the next cartridge and shoving it to the rear with enough force to cause the damage. BUT, during the short time I was able to examine the weapon, I couldn't find a single mark on any of the cases that would indicate such. SOMETHING was putting pressure on the rear of the mag causing that damage!
On the Glock mags, Glock says "Don't fall in love with a mag". "They work great, but at some point, they will begin to wear out". "For the price, get a new one and use the old as a practice mag". When they had them in stock, I found a wonderful dealer that had "used trade-in" weapons and magazines. I could get used mags for $6 each. I don't know how many I've ordered for myself and the guys down here, but it is a bunch! Most still had the factory stickers on the sides. But.........you had to be Law Enforcement to purchase/possess at that time. Since the Brady Bill sunset, they haven't had any in stock. When they get some more, you can bet that I'll be making another order. But........on that note..........I haven't had a single mag "wear out" yet. I've had some that swelled and failed to "drop-free" in the large frame G-21. Those are now practice mags. They still function just fine, but will NOT drop out of the weapon. I have them set aside for practice and marked accordingly. I've even got an old first generation G-17 that I've run for years. I haven't had a single mag malfunction with it yet. Matter of fact, the weapon hasn't had a single problem that wasn't caused by shooter error or bad ammunition! It is my "every day" carry weapon. That's how much I trust it! I do plan on getting something in a 40 for every day carry, but for the past 6 or so years, that old 17 has done just fine.
Best said, Glock is simplicity! They work! In my career of 21 years on the street, I've only seen one (1) Glock that wouldn't work. The striker wouldn't even move. THAT WAS DUE TO SHOOTER NEGLECT/IGNORANCE, not the weapon. It took me some 45 minutes of work and cleaning to get the weapon to function. The officer it was issued to had drawn it after another officer quit and turned it in. He NEVER checked it for function/reliability. Range qualification day was when the problem was found. He was embarrassed.........it scared me.....and after I had a lengthy conversation with him (he works a special detail where a weapon is most likely to be used)........he was scared! I don't think he will ever trust another weapon until he has tried it himself, ever again. But the problem I found seemed to be that this department doesn't have a Glock armorer, the weapons are not inspected at least on an annual basis, and each officer is responsible for their issue weapons cleaning/function. This weapon was full of "grease, metal shavings and gunk" to the extent that the striker COULD NOT MOVE! I had to use a pair of pliars and "pull/yank" the striker out. It looked like the weapon was field stripped, wiped and large quantities of grease applied to every "hole" that was visable......put back together until the next shooting session.........process repeated. NO WONDER!
Having said that, Glocks just work. Other than "Shooter error/neglect". I don't think any weapon will work if not properly cleaned/taken care of.
|02-05-2007, 09:43 PM||#8|
Join Date: Apr 2004
By the way all XD's use Melonite treatment which is the same salt-nitride bath process as Tennifer. They are trademark names for the same process.
XD's had the same "GLOCK" torture test and excelled just as well. In fact the test used on it was in even greater extremes than what GLOCK used. (springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory11.html) So reliabiblty is mute. In fact XD's don't have the history of AD that GLOCK has. Granted they don't have as much hisory, but 7 years is getting pretty good.
You also forgot to mention that the XD's use fully supported chambers. Something GLOCK just won't do for some reason.
Bottom line is it is completly subjective as to preference. I will have to give some note to all the glowing reports the XD's are getting these days. It is for good reason. Maybe it's because the industry has had 15 yrs to refine the GLOCK's few shortcomings.
I went in to get a GLOCK when I found my XD. For me the feel and SA were just sooo much better to me. My brother-in-law however will only use a GLOCK.
Speaking of the SA you mentioned. The GLOCK uses a similar method in that the firing pin is pre-cocked and then fully cocked as the trigger continues it's travel.
I will have to give it to GLOCK on the parts issue. I don't get Springfield on that one.
|02-05-2007, 10:04 PM||#9|
Join Date: Aug 2006
Don't blame you one bit!. I've got several friends here that went and picked up an XD because it fit their hand better. NO slide bite from an XD! I found that the XD has a better grip, better trigger out of the box. On my range, with an out of the box XD, I logged my 2nd fastest time cleaning the Texas Star. BUT.......I'm more comfortable and faster with the Glock. And.......with my own "custom tuning", the Glock is much better all around IMO. So.......it goes back to shooter preference! Go with what you are comfortable with.
|02-06-2007, 12:34 AM||#10|
Join Date: May 2006
Location: near Huntsville, Ala.
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