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PM9 -- awful slide/frame sticking. Why?

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14K views 31 replies 8 participants last post by  kurk  
C
#1 ·
New to the forum. Have searched a few times yet found nothing with other folks having a similar experience.

My new PM9 has a smooth slide when it's normally operating. However, about four times out of five, I cannot do a field strip and get the slide to remove. (Yes, I know about the trigger-release step.) As well, during reassembly the slide refuses to slide all the way back at least half the time. Haven't spoken with Kahr, yet. I had figured to send about 500 rds through, first, then reevaluate.

Any suggestions?
 
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#2 ·
Welcome to the forum:
How many rounds do you have through now? I would not wait much longer than 100. I have a PM9 that I had other issues with but not any dealing with field stripping. On my Kahr P45 you need to press down on the ejector sometime durning reasembly to get the slide back on but I never had that problem with the 9. It sounds troublesome to me that you are unable to remove the slide. I would suggest you call their tech dept. now and not wait much longer; the problem may get worse if you continue to fire the pistol. Good luck; the PM9 is worth the effort.
 
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#3 ·
beachjumper said:
How many rounds do you have through now?
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The first and only range session was last Saturday, during which time I put 250 rounds through it, including: 100 rounds of Remington/UMC FMJ 115gr, and 150 rounds of Federal HydraShok 124gr +P.

I would not wait much longer than 100.
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Wait for what? Communicating with Kahr? I just took some photos and sent an email to the Service group. In the next day or so, I should get a reply and we'll go from there. Failure of the slide to remove, reinstall, "rack" ... this was evident from new-in-the-box condition in advance of any rounds having been fired. (Should have field stripped it at the shop as I purchased it; have done this with every other pistol I've purchased, but this was the first I picked up without doing that validation step. Dumb.)

I have a PM9 that I had other issues with but not any dealing with field stripping. On my Kahr P45 you need to press down on the ejector sometime durning reasembly to get the slide back on but I never had that problem with the 9.
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Yes, during a field strip, the PM9 also requires flicking the trigger when racking the slide back, to allow the slide to come smoothly off the rails. Works smoothly, when it works. Jams up nearly every time, though.

Click Here for a link to two photos showing some of the gouging in the frame's rails.

We'll see what the tech dept. has to say. Can't imagine they'll like the gouging, thin curls of plastic being removed from the front/right slide on the frame, and inability of the slide to operate reliably.

I'm all for keeping the PM9 as a carry piece, but not this one if it's going to exhibit these problems. There aren't very many other pistols with the size/features of the PM9. I'm also vetting a KelTec P3AT 380ACP, now, as well. Distinct differences in apparent quality of parts, general operation. But, where the rubber meets the road, it's got to operation 100% to be carried. Whichever one hits 1000 rounds reliably gets the nod as the backup carry piece.
 
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#4 ·
Those are some "ugly " photos ccw9. It's a shame because it's a great "deep carry" piece.
What I meant about not waiting was that I would not have fired more than 100 rounds before contacting Kahr with that kind of problem. I didn't realize you had already fired 250 rounds at one session.
Your first photo is hard to see on my low tech screen but it looks like the striker is clipping the frame just behind the ejector. You 2nd photo is a mess in the sense that it looks like the frame and slide are not fitted properly.
I have had a lot of experience dealing with Dottie Herold from customer service and she always has been helpful if you treat her with respect; I'm not implying that you won't but it sure helps. I had to return my PM9 once to get a new barrel installed and had to send back my P45 three times before it was right.
It looks like that you are going to need a replcement pistol because of the damage to the frame. They should send a Fedex truck to your home or business. If you live in a state like Florida, you will have to go through your dealer when the new pistol is returned and redo the paper work with the new serial number and pay for a backround check again.
When I pointed this out to Dottie Herold , she allowed me to keep one of the magazines each time I had to replace the P45. So now I have 5 magazines for that pistol.
I would not give up on the PM9. It's easy to conceal and uses a legitamate caliber cartridge for self defense with the right ammo. I carry Speer's 124+ short barrel rounds in mine.
Good luck.
 
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#5 ·
Contacted Dottie @ Kahr Tech Support.

Based on the two photos I sent and my description, the reply so far is: "There is really nothing wrong with your pistol. What you are experiencing is very normal with polymer pistols." I've got another range session this weekend. I'll be plinking with 100 rounds at a time, followed by a field-strip to monitor the chewing on the frame's rails. Clearly documenting the eroding condition will prove the clincher, I think. It's a problem ... and Kahr will see this soon. No worries.

Yes, the PM9 looks to be a great combination of size, weight, features. Ran a few hot +P's through @ ~410 ft-lbs and was amazed by how controllable it was for a pocket pistol. Definitely has potential, once I iron out the frame/slide alignment issues. What I don't want to do is go to the steel version, given the weight penalties, but that may well be the avenue if the polymer frame cannot pass muster. The more issues, which will result in all the more rounds during my process to validate reliability, which will speed the demise of any pistol on the "fringe". We'll see.

Thanks, all.
 
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#6 ·
I'm surprised that she said that was nornmal wear. I have over 2800 rounds through my PM9 and it looks a lot better than your photos. What did she say about your problems with field stripping?
My PM9 and P45 seem to like plenty of lubercation so I run a snake through the barrel after 60 rounds and then smear a small dab of lithium grease on the barrel and hood without field stripping the pistols and then put a little oil on the exposed rails when the slide is locked back and then complete my firing session. I do not shoot more than 120 rouns per range session on any one firearm. Once I feel that a firearm is relieable, I bring it to the range about twice a month. I'll fire one box of my carry or defensive ammo and use FMJ practice rounds for the rest of the range sessions. This "lubercating" method seems to work on the "plastic" handguns; you need to make sure they do not "dry out" when you fire them. I fire more rounds with my all steel 1911 pistols and revolvers without using more lubercation as I do with the Kahrs.
That seems to work for me. However I have access to my outdoor range 7 days a week 9AM to sunset and 1PM to sunset on Sundays. You may not have that luxury.
 
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#7 ·
beachjumper said:
What did she say about your problems with field stripping?
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More or less, she indicated that the stiffness was typical of brand new polymer Kahrs and that several hundred rounds was generally necessary to cause enough cycling that the "excess" polymer is stripped away to reveal the "groove" of the gun. Once it's settled into that "groove", then it should operate flawlessly. Essentially, that's what she indicated. Well, sure enough sending 35K+ rounds through my prior Browning BDM had the same effect, by loosening everything up until it all worked very, very smoothly and swallowed all ammo. The PM9? It's surely working itself into some sort of groove, though it's the many other grooves in the rails I'm really concerned about. Having not owned any prior polymer gun, I'm just not sure what's to be considered "normal" or not.

I followed up with a question in a second email, regarding the inability to strip easily, and have not yet heard back. This weekend, I'll be flogging the PM9 in an extended range session, field stripping every 100 rounds until I either (a) kill the gun or (b) can't fire any longer due to blisters. If nothing else, I get to a good comfort level with the control/ergonomics of the PM9. I'll certainly find whether the "excess polymer" situation has concluded and everything begins working fine, or indeed it's a fatal flaw in this specific gun that warrants (in Kahr's mind) return to Kahr.

My PM9 and P45 seem to like plenty of lubercation so I run a snake through the barrel after 60 rounds and then smear a small dab of lithium grease on the barrel and hood without field stripping the pistols and then put a little oil on the exposed rails when the slide is locked back and then complete my firing session.
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Good tips. I did run a bore snake through after awhile, during the range session. Did do lube during the session. Didn't hit the hood, but did get the rails again. It cycles very, very well. It simply won't disassemble/reassemble. Unknown for certain that the minor gouges and curls of plastic I see coming off the nubs on the rails are related, though it's disconcerting.

I do not shoot more than 120 rouns per range session on any one firearm. Once I feel that a firearm is relieable, I bring it to the range about twice a month.
Click to expand...
I often fire 500-700 rounds per session. And I certainly take a given gun through its paces if I'm reviewing it for possible concealed carry. No way will I carry a gun if it cannot survive 1-2K rounds with stellar reliability.

This "lubercating" method seems to work on the "plastic" handguns; you need to make sure they do not "dry out" when you fire them.
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Again, the reliability of cycling was never at issue, either early on or later in the range session. I did to minor lubrication during the session, to aid break-in and reliability until it works itself into a "groove" of sorts. The minor defects I'm seeing may or may not actually be causing the slide's stiffness and refusal to reliably disassemble during field strip. It cycles well. It just won't come apart when I want it to. Once the slide's back onto the frame, it is smooth as buttah. Strange situation, to be sure.

However I have access to my outdoor range 7 days a week 9AM to sunset and 1PM to sunset on Sundays. You may not have that luxury.
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8a-10p, 7 days a week. Small range, indoors, quiet and simple. Works very well for flogging a new gun.
 
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#8 ·
You seem to have it under conrol. I could not afford to use up 500-700 rounds per session unless I start reloading which I'm thinking of doing . At age 65 I do not have the stamina or powers of comcentration to stay focused to fire effectly that many rounds at one time.
I was having problems with the P45 with blisters. If I fired more than 40-50 rounds, the aggressive stippling on that pistol would rub my hand raw between my stong side hand thumb and trigger finger. So now I fire a box of my carry round bare handed first then put on a "shooting" glove I fashioned from a bycicle glove by cutting off the finger tips off on it. Much cheaper than the brand named shooting gloves.
I feel a defense firearm is reliable to carry once the break in period is done without any malfuctions due to the weapon and not due to an improper grip[limp wrist ect...]. Then If I can get 60 rounds of carry ammo through it 3 sessions in a row, I feel I'm ready to go. 60 rounds is an arbitrary nunber I decided on. I figure if I need more than 60 rounds to end a gun fight, I'm dead meat.
Something that strikes me is that if you're firing 500-700 per sessios, your pistol must be generating large amounts of heat that may be effecting the "plastice" rails. However, I have no specific facts to back up that hunch on my part. But I'm assuming you must be field stripping at some point; Does it become easier when the pistol has a chance to cool down a little? Just a thought.
 
W
#9 ·
ccw9mm said:
Click Here for a link to two photos showing some of the gouging in the frame's rails.
Click to expand...
The plastic frame rails are not functional, they add nothing except a guide for assembling the pistol AFAIK. I would carefully remove any plastic flashings from the manufacture process though...

If you've got more than 300-500 rounds through the PM9 then you have to start looking for signs of the barrel peening problem that they're prone to...
 
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#11 ·
It is hard to tell exactly what is wrong from the pics.

I DID shave some flashings from around the rails of my PM9 after the first two range sessions, but I hesitate to advocate that for fear that some people don't know what they are doing. Basically, my PM9 has been 100% reliable after about 200 rounds.

Mine has also been a bit tricky to strip. Because of the tight tolerances between parts, I have to pull and wiggle it a bit at some sticking points. I try not to force it though, and it always comes apart smoothly after the parts clear each other.
 
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#12 ·
LFK said:
Has this problem been resolved?
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Kahr has the PM9 and is reviewing.

Agreed: the gouges in the plastic are likely not functional deficiencies, and rather merely excess being scraped away. What it's got, though, is a severe case of the jamz. Hopefully they'll be able to massage it to decency. Else, it's outta here. Can't be relying on something as a carry weapon with 59 cycling failures in < 800 rds.
 
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#14 ·
ccw9mm said:
LFK said:
Has this problem been resolved?
Click to expand...
Kahr has the PM9 and is reviewing.

Agreed: the gouges in the plastic are likely not functional deficiencies, and rather merely excess being scraped away. What it's got, though, is a severe case of the jamz. Hopefully they'll be able to massage it to decency. Else, it's outta here. Can't be relying on something as a carry weapon with 59 cycling failures in < 800 rds.
Click to expand...
I had the same problems with my PM40. I wrote about it on this site under "New PM4044". It took me a while, but I fixed it, and now have it in my pocket.

Good luck,
 
U
#15 ·
Beachjumper: Regarding your P45 doing a number on your hands...I had the same problem and solved it by taking an ordinary file and carefully filling down the sharp edges till it suited me. I can now shoot comfortably without a glove. I have a dremel with a soft wire wheel which I used to do a final cleaning/smoothing after filing. Prob could use one of the wire brushes (like a toothbrush) made for gun cleaning.
 
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#16 ·
Thanks for that suggestion ulflyer.
I think the aggessive stippling is a + in a SD situation since I doubt that I would even notice it with the adrenaline rush one gets when "under fire". I've decided to fire two magazines of my SD ammo first without a glove then switch to practice ammo[usually about 50 rounds] with the glove. But I may take your advise and file down the part of the grip that is giving me a problem. Seems like the part of my palm just beneath the web of my hand is where I will get a blister if I fire without a glove. I'ts very hard to build-up a callous there without it effecting the shooting of my other handguns. I'm very satisfied with the performance of this pistol. I have settled on Hornady 200+ as my carry round and shoot about 3 boxes of this ammo a month without problems.
 
U
#19 ·
Beachjumper: I know what you mean. I'm older than you and can't see to get the accuracy I once could. I bought a Colt Defender awhile back and it had the XS big dot. I couldn't hit squat on my 12 yard backyard range so I changed it to a small dot which worked better. I bought the Defender for CCW but when it came down to it I couldn't bring myself to carry "cocked and locked". Went thru a variety of others, Springfield XD, Taurus 745, Colt '03 and '08, etc, but none suited me til I tried a Mackarov. Fell in love with them, own 5 now :oops:, and bought a ton of 9 X 18 ammo. Then I came upon the P45 and there went my fickle heart! :D
 
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#20 ·
Well ulflyer at least you'll have fun at the range with those Russians. Cocked and locked is the way to go on the 1911 but they are too large for me to carry concealed with my life style. They would scare the crap out off my firearm challenged freinds if they caught a glimpse of a cocked .45 on my belt. So, I'm either carrying the P45 or the PM9 depending how much concealment I need.
 
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#21 ·
Hi ulflyer:
I made some progress with the problem of the stippling on the P45 yesterday. I put an ordinary Band-Aid over the top part of the back strap where the stippling was grinding my hand.
I fired 75 rounds, about 2/3's SD ammo, without a glove. It's the best I fired since I've had the pistol. I have a very good idea where I should file down the stippling; I'll need only about a 2 by 1 mm square on the upper left corner of the back strap.
 
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#23 ·
ulflyer:
The outside of my index finger all the way around through the web of my hand and the edge of my thumb are pretty well calloused on both hands. It's just that one spot on my strong hand just beneath the web on the plam side that I cannot form a callous without causing a blister. I do a lot of shooting and yard work so my hands stay rough all year round. I've tried Speer's SB, Hornady's 200+ and Rem. GS 185+ for carry. I think the last two are too hot for good follow up shots with the P45 so I think I'll go with Hornady's 200. I shot 40 rounds with that today at 7 yards with a 4" square stuck on a silhouette target just above where the sternum would be. I got all but four rounds inside the square rapid fire. I never did that with the + ammo; Same Band-Aid. What type of combat grip do you use when shooting the P45?
 
U
#24 ·
BJ: Don't know what the grip is called...left hand sorta cupped under and around the right shooting hand. I loaded up some Hornady XDP HP's but decided that reloads may not be the best for CCW so I switched to some WWB til I can get to a gun show to pick up something better. Have read various thughts on HP expanding, or not properly expanding, out of short barreled pistols and am wondering if FMJ might be better...or maybe intermixed. One thing that influences my thinking is that a long time ago my nephew came over and I was showing him a compact S&W 457 and danged if he didn't pull the trigger. Stupid me didn't unload it first. :oops: Gun was pointed at an angle and bullet impacted the front of a chest of drawers with about 1/2 inch thick wood face, then directly into 6 cotton hankerchiefs folded into squares for pocket carry. Bullet went thru two hankerchiefs but pushed the whole lot partially thru the thin bottom of the drawer. Point is, I was surprised at the lack of penetration, with a FMJ no less, and suspect that in winter when one may be wearing heavy clothes it would strongly impede travel of a bullet, perhaps a HP even more. Not very scientific I know, but its always made me wonder. One thing tho, even if it didn't penetrate deeply, the sheer force of impact would surely hurt like heck. Other non-scientific oberservations are when I used a large metal oil tank for target practice. FMJ 45's would go in one side and stop, or maybe dent the opposite side. FMJ 9mm would go thru both sides every time. Lead 38's just made a dent. Hope I never have to use anything, but I prefer the 45.

PS: Have you changed your recoil spring yet? Could you tell when it "needed" changing, or just went by number of shots fired?
 
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#25 ·
Ammo selection may be off topic ulflyer but, FWIW, Speer claims its .45 SB ammo has 14.5" of penetration and .75 of expansion out of a Glock m30 which has a slightly longer barrel than the P45. Go to http://www.miragetechnologies.net/ and scoll down to the bottom to Speer SB ammo. I'm sure this subject has been beaten to death on most gum forums.
I think the key to avoiding most of the damage the aggressive stippling can cause is a very firm grip with the strong hand. This will prevent the grip from moving during recoil against your hand with a "cheese grinder effect". I can't recommend FMJ for SD unless your pistol has problems feeding HP ammo. I always use factory SD ammo for carry. I change recoil springs at 1500 rounds. I then test for reliability with a 100 rounds of thr SD ammo I carry. I then use the old Spring for the range. I worry more about the magazines than the recoil springs. Over $44 a pop.
 
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