K9 extractor tension - Pistolsmith
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Old 06-19-2002, 10:22 AM   #1
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I have not seen many malfs with Kahrs. A friend bought one on my recommendation and brought it over, he'd had some hangups which, by his description, sounded like things were coming to a stop as the case started going up under the extractor. I put a round under the extractor and there was what I would consider, by 1911 standards at least, an awful lot of tension. This is something I had never even checked on mine as malfs in 7K+ rounds can be counted on one hand. But sometimes, when there's a bobble in a match, you don't get time to really analyse it... and thinking back, I felt I could say that the few problems I have had with mine were very possibly extractor-tension related. The way the Kahr works, the point in the cycle at which the rim is trying to get under the extractor is pretty close to the time the recoil spring, in closing the slide, has to start to overcome the striker spring. Put your Kahr's slide on the frame without the barrel and recoil spring in place and you'll see what I mean. The striker spring fights the recoils spring.

I got a couple of extractor springs, intending to do some experimenting with tension by shortening the springs. Once I got going, I decided instead to do it by shortening the 1/8 X .450 pin that goes behind it (the spring). This pin does double duty, in concert with the rear of the stiker, helping to retain the rear plate in the slide. So, reducing this pin's length and/or shortening the spring also reduces retention of this plate.

I made a duplicate pin but .085 shorter, and long story short, cut extractor tension in half, gaged by putting the slide upside-down on a scale and pushing a round under the extractor. Went from 4 pouds to 2-- still more than puh-lenty. The above-mentioned plate retention is not an issue as the 1/8 pin still has more "push" that, say, a 1911 firing pin which does the same duty, and the Kahr's pin has much less mass and so should not be moving forward as the slide closes.... on top of which, the back end of the striker, all by itself, would probably be sufficient.

Ran about 75 rounds through it and no prob-- will be doing an ongoing study. I believe this is more than enough extractor tension, and that as it was was probably too much and probably was the source of some of the few hangups. I'm doing this to my gun first so as to know if it's a viable solution for my friend's gun. I also believe that for any K9/person pairing that maybe has limp-wristing problems, this would have to be a huge help.

This gun will now feed all rounds from a magazine in total, hand-controlled, slow-motion mode, not pushing the slide forward, but slowly letting it forward under the recoil spring's influence. This does not mean anything, other than it shows me there is no percieved hesitation when the round comes under the extractor.

FWIW for my fellow Kahr people.
 
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Old 08-14-2002, 02:03 PM   #2
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 118
Ned that is interesting. I don't know the details of the Kahr, however.

I recently bought a P9. I like the gun, but when I took it out it functioned for about 30 rounds. Then it began to malfunction. The fired case would not clear the ejection port. The case was parallel to the barrel with the mouth forward and the mouth caught on the rear of the barrel hood. I have never had a gun do that. I did read somewhere that someone else was experiencing the same malfunction.

I called Kahr and talked to Larry who was very nice. He thought it might be the extractor tension too tight. I sent it in and they replaced the slide.
Also I ordered an extra magazine and they sent me 2 free ones also. Nice touch.

Today I took the P9 out and for about 50 rounds it was fine. Then it did the same thing. I field stripped it and cleaned it and it was ok for about 25 rounds or so and started again. I went through this three times. At the last it would not run 20 rounds before it started the same malfunction

I called Larry today, but he wasn't available so will try again tomorrow.

Since you have looked at the Kahr pretty well, do you have any ideas?

Oh yes, I also got a very light primer strike. It wasn't the first or last round in the magazine, and the gun cycled normally except it did not fire. The firing pin barely made a dent in the Remington factory ammo primer.

One complaint, I wish the trigger guard was slightly larger. I do not have large hands, but the bottom of the guard skins my trigger finger in about 50 rounds or so.

Jerry
 
Old 08-15-2002, 05:52 AM   #3
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Jerry, your prob does not sound extractor-related to me as it's happening more in the ejection stage. I think this is ammo-related, as in too light or maybe even too hot-- what is the ammo that this is happening with? It also has some of the earmarks of a polymer gun that is not being held solidly. Any of that sound possible?

As to the light primer strike, I guess it was a misfire? Kahrs do not sound like they hit very hard, but I've never had a misfire with mine, even with some old '52 European subgun stuff that has given me misfires with my Browning. Kahrs do tend to scrape off brass from the cases as they cycle, due to rough surfaces and sharp edges.... I can imagine this building up in some guns and preventing full striker travel. Also, back to the maybe-too-hot ammo thing, sometimes if the ammo is so hot, the primer will flow into the firing pin hole and then some of the primer cup material will shear off into the firing pin hole when the case slides down on the breachface as the barrel unlocks. Next shot, there's that little piece of brass in the way of the firing pin, enough to cushion its blow and cause a misfire.

Take a look, maybe....? Glad to hear that Kahr has been attentive, that seems to be the rule with them.
 
 
Old 08-15-2002, 08:17 AM   #4
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 118
Ned,
Thanks for lthe reply.
The malfunctions have occurred with Rem factory 115 gr +P. Win white box, S&B, CorBon, and slightly less than full power handloads.
I can't detect anything out of the ordinary in the appearance of the case or the primer.

I am aware of the greater liklihood of problems with a light grip with polymer guns. I have made it a point to hold it very tightly. I doesn't seem to matter. I had tried to see if it made a difference, and even used the weak hand and held it loosely and it didn't malfunction during those rounds.

It is a puzzle to me that it malfunctions, and then when it is clean it runs for 25 or 30 rounds before it starts again. However, I don't think I should have to clean it so often and at the range. I usually fire 200 or so rounds. But even after cleaning and lube it sometimes malfunctioned within two magazines.

I talked to David at KAHR this morning and he is going to replace it. They have been very cooperative, and I have no complaint with their efforts.

I'll report on the new P9 when I get it and test it. If anyone makes a SA that will malfunction, they always save it for me.
I only have five guns which were reliable OTB, a Glock 26, three Makarovs, and my old GI Rem Rand which I bought through the DCM in 1960 and it would feed corncobs if they would fit in the magazine.

I have bought 3 Kimbers, and three SA 1911s and all had to have several trips to the factory or in the case of the Kimbers two had to go to custom smiths for reliability work to get them to run. All are ok now, but my love affair with 1911s is over. They are just too much trouble before you get them absolutely reliable. I realize others haven't had the same experiences, but those are my experiences, and since I had one as my primary weapon for 22 years and shot them many times I have some knowledge of 1911s and what the GI guns do. I do not remember ever having a GI gun malfunction. I am sure they have but not in my experience. I realize that they are using ball ammo, but the commercial guns would not run even with ball OTB.

I appreciate your answer. Thank you very much.

Jerry
 
Old 08-16-2002, 06:36 AM   #5
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Jeez, sounds like a possible aura problem :-? ! You know what to do and what to look for (hope my first post did not sound condescending)..... I'm stumped. I'm thinking now that it's still the same principal at work but not you or the ammo, maybe it has the wrong recoil spring in it. Anyhow, sounds like K is gonna do you right (as it seems they almost always do)..... keep us posted!

Ned
 
Old 08-16-2002, 09:40 AM   #6
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 118
I very much appreciate all your comments. I know you have a level of expertise that I do not.
I believe that Kahr will take care of it. I admit I seem to have much more trouble than most. When I buy a new SA I sometimes feel like the little man in one of the cartoons who had a cloud over him. I only have this problem with SA handguns.

I remember that there was the same problem with a .40 Kahr on another thread about a couple of weeks ago on this forum. I didn't learn what he had found out.

Thanks again, Ned, it is great to have you and others who are professionals take your time to help us in these areas.

Jerry
 
Old 08-23-2002, 02:50 PM   #7
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The aforementioned chum, in whose interest I did the above experiment, showed up today with his K9 and a P40. The P40 had a hard time chambering a round due to very high (7.5 lbs) extractor tension. I did the above mod to both and took them down to 2 and 2.5 pounds for the 9 and .40 respectively. We did some test firing and both worked well-- I made him promise to run at least 200 through each before carrying, will report on his report.
 
Old 10-21-2002, 04:53 PM   #8
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Just a little update... my guinea pig chum left me a message the other day that he's put a couple hundred rounds through each of his Kahrs with no probs, more specifically, no extraction probs.
 
Old 07-25-2003, 04:22 AM   #9
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I decided to go back and re-read this thread in light of Shootist's post. I had forgotten about Jerry M's problem and I now believe it's the same as described with the above P9. I'm thinking a square-ended K9 extractor, if it will drop in, will cure this problem.
 
Old 01-29-2006, 08:10 AM   #10
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 6
P9

Same problems with my P9.
Very disappointed. This is touted as a premium gun at a premium price.
My Smith and Glock automatics have never failed me!!
 
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