Another off-duty carry question..... - Pistolsmith
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Old 09-22-2004, 10:09 PM   #1
 
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Another off-duty carry question.....

My agency has no policy on off-duty carry. Some have a state CCW permit and carry what they please with the idea that "they are on their own" if a shooting happens. How much control can one place on the off-duty conduct of an officer? Example: Joe Citizen can get a CCW, pack anything he wants, but a trained officer can't. My point: That j-frame .38 on the person beats the 229 left at home.........
 
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Old 09-23-2004, 03:35 AM   #2
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Quote:
How much control can one place on the off-duty conduct of an officer?
I do not intend to flame you with this response, but they own you 24 hours a day 7 days a week 365 days a year as long as you wear that uniform. Whether you want to be held to a higher standard than joe public or not - you will be. If something happens when you are off duty and you are carrying either against their policy or you make a bozo mistake, the papers all say the same thing "off duty police officer screws up." You will be sued personally as well as the department.

Follow the concealed carry policy, if they don't have one use common sense. You are the one that has the training and works dialy in law enforcement.

JeffVN
 
Old 09-23-2004, 11:53 PM   #3
 
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Your reply did not offend me in the least. You note that they "own you 24 hours a day........"

In theory, then, management could prevent you from hunting with a handgun. Or teaching your kid to shoot a .22 pistol. Or handling any gun they don't wan't you to handle. Could management write a policy that says, "any employee of X PD can only possess issued firearms?"

What got me thinking about this is the wisdom of having a gun on you at all times. Plus, the HR 218 ramifications. Packing a 229, etc all the time is simply not possible.
 
 
Old 09-24-2004, 10:45 AM   #4
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Actually the reason that they normally have an off duty carry policy is to control collateral damage with the likelihood of an officer shooting a bad guy. I just learned about the CC in NY and the bottom line is that they carry what they carry on or off duty for 2 reasons. One is what the department can verify that officers have been trained on and what they can back up in court. You could probably carry what you want even if there is a policy against it but if you do you may be left on your own in the court room with no department to back you and you may also be chastised for not obeying a direct order. I hate to say it but if you have a policy, follow it. And the departments own you with regard to your actions involving duty on or off the clock. Meaning if you take your kid out to learn how to use a 22 and some crazy guy is at the range and you have to nail him with the 22, that’s that. That is what you had to do in that situation. But if your department has a 9mm only carry policy and you are at a gas station and some dude goes to commit a robbery and you yank out a 44mag that you are carring against policy and blast him that’s were it comes into play. Your actions as an officer of the law are what they control, not your life. You hunting or shooting for recreation is on you. I don’t agree with all of the policies I have heard but some make since even some I don’t agree with. Hope that better explains it. It concerns being able to back officers in court and $$$ more than anything else. 8)
 
Old 09-24-2004, 10:55 AM   #5
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I'm not sure they can go as far as you suggested (policy about no hunting, training your child to shoot, or owning a non-issued firearm). But they certainly can formulate and attempt to enforce a restrictive policy about when you can or cannot carry concealed. Whether they can get it past the union is different story.

My statement about the department owning you 24/7/365 goes more to the higher liability standard that you are held to as a police offcer. If something happens when you are off duty, the rules that apply to "Joe Citizen" don't apply to you. You are under the microscope - not everyone is.

JeffVN
 
Old 10-03-2004, 07:19 PM   #6
 
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CPPO, I dont know if you've seen other threads that I have responded to but if you have you should remember that I talk about two pistols and two pistols only. The first is my department issue Glock 22 and the second is my back-up/off duty pistol, a SIGARMS 229. Obviously the 22 is in .40 caliber and the SIG is also in .40 caliber. The reason why I talk about the two is because those are the only two pistols I carry. The reason being is the same reason others have touched on in this thread.
LIABILITY!!!!!
The Glock was issued to me by my agency and the SIG is what I carry as a backup on duty and off duty. I had to qualify with the SIG and it is listed on my work page as my backup weapon. I know that if I ever have to fire either of those pistols to protect myself or someone else I am going to be sued. It's the nature of the beast. I also know that if that ever happens the training officer of the Dept can appear and honestly testify that I am trained and qualified with both.
We are held to a higher standard that Joe Blow citizen on the street. Decisions that we have to make in less then a split second are going to be turned around, upside down, right side up, on the side and finally inside out. Take the time before that happens and follow procedure and dont put yourself in a position to where you can get jammed up and be left hanging. Follow your department guidelines. If they dont have one, beef and complain until they establish one. All it does is protect you brother.
 
Old 10-05-2004, 07:14 AM   #7
 
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off duty carry

I personally qualify with every firearm I own that is on our list. I am sure to have at least one of them with me, or nearby, at all times. If I happen to be hunting or teaching the kids on a non approved weapon, I also have a gun that I have qualified with. I do get some raised eyebrows when they see that I have qualified with more than the normal 3 handguns. My explanation about liability and the fact that I provide my own ammo for every thing beyond the basic 3 shuts them up.
 
Old 10-06-2004, 04:15 PM   #8
 
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I guess I'm having a lot of trouble with the whole concept of policy controlling otherwise legal behavior when one is not on the payroll. If my issue gun is a Glock 19 but I want to carry an "unauthorized" J-frame .38 off-duty (on a CCW permit), I think I should be able to do so. I fully understand that if I use it, the department has every right to say, "You are on your own." Has the general issue of policy controlling off-duty behavior ever been litigated?
 
Old 10-06-2004, 07:56 PM   #9
 
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If it hasn't, you could be the first. :cry:
 
Old 10-07-2004, 09:01 AM   #10
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If it has they probably needed a Union to back them. That would be a huge step. I agree with you as far as the department backing or not backing. If you choose to go with an unapproved firearm and you have to use it knowing that the department is not going to be there for you then they should not also chastise you at work for not carrying what they wanted you to carry on top of a civil trial. About the only thing that I agree with as far as the department regulating what you carry is making sure that the Officers are at a minimum qualified or trained a little on the weapon. One thing that has recently made light is that all the departments in the area have a similar qualifying course for off duty weapons that they use for on duty and if you pass then the department will back the officer involved in a shooting. I think that is reasonable and the way it should be done. If the officer can be trained even at his/her own expense with the off duty weapon by the department standards what ever they may be then they should be allowed to carry what they want. We have had officers that have come through in the past that can’t qualify with any weapon and complained because the department told them they were not allowed to carry off duty either. That is common sense to me, if you can’t shoot and refuse to learn the trade then you do not need a firearm. Sorry about getting a little off subject. 8)
 
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