Gilly

anybody, in justifiable self defense? Do you know that the odds are at least 20 to 1 that you wont have to hit anyone beyond 10 ft? If you can't control an alloy compact 1911 well enough to stay on the chest at 10 ft, at full speed, with plus P ammo, you need lots of training, not a wimpier load.

Gilly, the merits of different calibers and different handguns is a topic for another day. I carry a POS, Bersa Thunder 45, Monday to Friday, because it is lightweight, accurate, reliable, and it didn't cost me an arm or a leg. On the weekend I carry what I want as I am in a tamer neighborhood. Lately, I have been carrying a Bersa Thunder 380 or one of my Makarovs. I am here to tell you I do not feel unarmed when I carry either the Bersa 380 or Mak. Regards, Richard

Gilly

Most feel no need of a weapon at all. For what most guys can accomplish with a pistol, I can do a lot faster with a walking stick. :-) Few can react, draw and hit a 10" chest circle, 5 try average, from realistic concealment (not bs about an UNFASTENED coat) in less than 2 seconds. In 2 seconds, I can charge 20 ft and take your head off with a walking stick, or break your arm or leg if I'm feeling generous at the time. Since 90+ % of attacks are made at 10 ft or less. 20 ft covers about 99 out of 100 justifiable defense shootings by civilians. So the gun is just a joke, for nearly everybody. A blowback 380 might as well be a .22, dude. If you'd shot as many animals as I have with both .22 and 380, you'd know that. I either carry a M21 Beretta .22, mostly for plinking, or I carry a 600+ ft lb load, for real likelihood of putting the man on his face, before he can do squat to me.

Gilly, I am sorry I didn't recognize you prior to this. In case anyone other than me didn't know it Gilly is really "Harden" and I knew of him at the old Shooters site. I am surprised you haven't been banned here but I guess it is only a matter of time. Without regard, Richard ops:

ArmedBuddhist

Can you provide a website where you got the 20 to 1 ratio under 10ft? I'm honestly curious. Most of the information I've seen seems to state that an attack generally occurs within a 7 yard radius. Double the distance you are suggesting. This is according to FBI statistics and it sounds correct. I haven't looked at the statistics closely but this could be an average distance. If so, then at least half of the attacks take place at further distances than 21 feet. I can understand why they might be greater than 21 feet. Rooms in your house, garage space, or backyard will often be 21 feet or larger.

You recommend a walking stick over a pistol for self defense? I'll stick with the pistol if you don't mind.

Realistic concealment for my Makarov in the winter time is my jacket pocket. I can pull it out as fast as I can my empty hand. No one has ever timed me, but I believe I'm pulling it out in under one second. Even with my summer carry I can spot a threat, clear leather and fire within 1.2 seconds. Since it's the summer, no coat. Just pants and shirt.


I think you have some assumptions about how you think a shooting incident might go down that I don't share. First off, you seem to be saying that your attacker will be armed with a walking stick, or knife. Since armed robbery carries a bigger jail time than burgulry, you might have a point. I've read plenty of stories in the papers about unarmed burglers. I'm not sure you should count on them being lesser armed though.

You also seem to be saying that an attacker would attack you at the same moment that you see him. The assumption being that both of you have the same time to react. I'm not sure it would happen that way. If the criminal hears me coming and has the drop on me, then I'll have no chance at all to respond. He will get the first shot. If he breaks into my home, then I may hear him coming first and get the drop on him. Then his reaction time won't matter because I will have the first shot.

If he shoots me, I won't be charging him with any stick. If I'm lucky, I'll still be unwounded enough to shoot back. If he charges at me with a knife, nothing says I have to stand in the same spot. My ARMC defensive course teaches us to back away from an attacker while shooting at him if the situation allows. It's not very macho. Feels as though you are backing away from a fight instead of taking the hurt to them. It's not really a bad technique though if your goal is to survive an attack. This allows you to lengthen the distance between you and someone charging at you. So a person charging from 21 feet may find out I've backed up 10 feet while still shooting at him. He now has to cover 31 feet instead of 21 feet and all the while I'm gonna be popping shots. A criminal would have to be very determined to charge directly into gunfire. Me? I'd go look for crack money somewhere else at that point.

If you can safely put some distance between you and someone else shooting at you, then they will have a tougher time hitting you at any longer distances with their handgun. I'm not out to win in a shooting incident...just survive. Surviving means the guy is out of the house and I'm still alive. If they have to carry him out, that's okay. If he turns around and runs out of the house, that's okay too.

I don't think a Makarov or any gun can be called a joke. Being shot by a bullet doesn't sound like a joke to me. In any caliber. A .22 is point 22 inches in diameter. A .380 is .35 inches in diameter. A 9x18mm is .36. That's .13 or .14 inches bigger diameter bullet than a .22. That's a bigger hole in somebody than a .22 can make. .22 hollow points don't expand out very well. A .380 hollow point can mushroom out to .50 inch diameter. A much bigger hole than a .22. Not a laughing matter.

I don't plink at animals so I'm not really worried about how an animal is going to respond to being shot. I'm more worried about how a man will react. I've read many stories where a .380 was used to kill people. Some terrorist climbed a tower in New York and killed five people with one several years ago. A .380 will kill someone. That's really all the information I need.

I know you meant this a different way but I can't resist pointing out that you said you wanted to put a man on his face BEFORE he did squat to you. Most jurisdictions will want you to wait UNTIL he does something to you, like threaten you, before you do something to him. If he doesn't do squat to you, you might be in trouble for using the "600+ ft pound Solution".

All joking aside, why is 600 ft pounds an acceptable amount, but 200 or 300ft lbs not? As I mentioned already, there are plenty of stories about people being killed with a .380. The 9x18mm ammunition has less data on it because it's not originally American, but they seem to run at about the same speeds as a hot loaded .380 or a low end 9x19mm. Really not too bad for the short barrel that a Makarov has. It's hard to get really high foot pounds without lengthening the barrel (less concealable) or increasing the bullet size (wider barrel...so less concealable) or loading tons of powder into the bullet (needs a big chamber to contain the blast...so less concealable).

Also, I'm not sure what gun you are recommending as a good defensive carry weapon. I did a quick search for 9x19mm and .45ACP foot pounds of energy and I read the article at this webpage. http://www.greent.com/40Page/general/defammo.htm

According to the author of this page, the 9x19mm has an average of 465 ft lbs and the .45ACP has 369 ft pounds. I consider both of these to be fine defensive choices for calibers. To get to the 600 ft pounds you've recommended sounds like it might be more handgun than I can handle. I think it would have to be a very large and unconcealable handgun as well.

This webpage also has recommendations and descriptions of defensive calibers. .380, 38 special, 9x19mm, .45ACP. I thought it was worth reading also.

jaysouth

Mr. Camp, sometimes you make me disgusted.....with my bad habits and poor discipline when shooting.

You prove the point that hits in the center of mass area count more than gunrag rants, internet posts or gunshowcommando commentary about caliber, "knockdown power",single hit knockdown probabilites using questionable scientific methodology, or foot pound of energy.

Thank you for sharing the results of your excellent marksmanship and commonsense observations. Keep up the good work.

Stephen A. Camp

Hello, sir, and thank you. I'm glad the post was of interest.

Best.

Brian D.

Since this thread's alive again, let me chime in that I've recently become a Makarovnik too. Like mine well enough to have:
1) Made a pilgrimage to "Makarov.com" in West Virginia to pick up parts, holster, etc.
2) Had my FLG install a set of night sights on the little blaster.

Gads, I'm only a small step or two away from turning into a Buckeye version of Richard or Stephen!

Always said that while the Mak may not be the most size efficient little pistola out there, the economics of the thing would eventually drive me into buying one. Kinda sorry it took this long..

M. Hall

That's a nice little Mak Richard!