|09-10-2003, 06:38 PM||#1|
Join Date: Aug 2002
Need help re .308 - PSS or Model 70?
I want something to play with at the range (and possibly use in the off chance I go boar hunting). I'm going to get a .308 (and put a leupold on it). I have narrowed it down to a remington pss or a winchester model 70 and intend to either leave it stock or do minimal modifications if necessary. I have never owned a bolt action and know nothing about them.
Which rifle do you recommend and why?
Looking forward to your input.
|09-10-2003, 09:54 PM||#2|
Join Date: Feb 2003
Neal, here's my 2 cents:
For the money it's hard to beat either the PSS or M70. But there are a couple of things to consider:
a) PSS in 308 wears 26" barrel M70 wears 24" barrel (unless you were considering Stealth model), so in the field the 24" is **slightly** more manuverable/carri-able for that off-chance of going pig hunting.
b) PSS does not have J-lock bolt lock mechanism. M70 does not have alternative bolt locking system other than 3position safety. J-lock is just an added feature to make the anti-gun advocates happy.
c) OOTB accuracy PSS hands down. But keep in mind the PSS was intended for a specific pupose whereas the M70 is intended for field/hunting use (again assuming not Stealth model).
d) Both rifles can be "modified" or "tuned" fairly easily. But there is a large number of shooters/riflesmiths, including myself, that prefer the M700 platform.
With that said, you may want to shoot either rifle if that's a possible option to see which you prefer. The PSS has a distinctive stock with a palm swell pistol grip which some shooters find annoying/useless. That's a subjective point but none the less, something you should also consider.
Some shooters prefer the M70 action in control round feed rather than push feed M700 style. Either design is fine for your application. Nothing really mystical about a turn bolt gun, just rack it and shoot!
|09-11-2003, 05:34 AM||#3|
Join Date: Apr 2001
Don't be so hasty to jump on the "PSS is more accurate hands down" bandwagon. Of late Remington has been having some horrendous QC problems (bad bedding, chamber not being concentric with bore, sections of rifling missing, crowns that look like cheese graters). The new Stealth is an awesome rifle. It's the evolution of the 70 HBV which was a fantastic weapon. The Winchester factory barrel is of much higher quality than the Remington. The barrels don't throw the cold bore shot as much, they are just as/if not more, accurate and they clean up much easier. I had two PSS's until I tried a friends Stealth. The only way I got either of my PSS's to shoot as well as any Stealth I've shot was to send 'em to Hart and spend an extra $175 on 'em :roll: For the money, you can't go wrong with the Stealth.
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|09-11-2003, 09:30 PM||#4|
Join Date: Feb 2003
I guess you're experience has been different than my with the PSS. I have shot 2 PSS and 2 Stealth rifles in excess of 1000 rounds each and with both PSS-es I was shooting, it beat out the Stealths in consistent agg-sizes, hence my remarks. None of the rifles were modified other than having the triggers rework on all 4 rifles. I participated in rifle testing with a few of the local SWAT shooters for their new department issued rifles (department finally issued PSS to their shooters). A total of 6 PSS and 6 Stealth were used in testing. All rifles shot 168gr FGMM with Leuppie 3.5x10 M3 optics on MK4 rings/bases. Out of the 10 shooters that participated in testing, only 2 prefered the Stealth for ergonomic reasons only.
Both Remy and Winnie have their issues with QC as of late most notable the WSM line for Winnie though I do not doubt Remy has similar issues. But, I have not heard or experienced these quality issues with the PSS model in particular. From what I gather in discussion in other forums is that Winnie QC has tightened up and additional QC steps along production line have begun to increase product quality.
|09-12-2003, 05:31 AM||#5|
Join Date: Apr 2001
Yeah, I didn't mean to come off as too surly in my last post. You're right about all companies being hit by the QC gremlin. It just seems right now that Remington is in a "valley" while Winnie is in a "peak". Unfortunately, I'm sure it will fluctuate. One thing I noticed is the fit and finish on the PSS's has changed drastically over the years. The first one I bought was put together quite well and really didn't need anything. The second one was finished quite sloppily and wasn't up to par. I think the biggest fallacy that people have about the PSS's is that it's a custom shop gun. If you get a "good" example of either PSS or Stealth, you're gonna get one hell of a rifle. It just seems right now given the current (at least for now) market the QU on the Winnie seems a little better.
|09-12-2003, 07:49 AM||#6|
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: People's Republik, Komrade
My own experience with these 2 rifles reflect DEA's experience. However, I would not feel better or worse off with either rifle. You mentioned that you might make minimal modifications, in which case, you should by the rifle you are most comfortable with, both in feel and in operation under your hands.
If, on the other hand, you ever decide you might want to do more than just minor modifications, their are more options available with the Remington. Also, most of the top riflesmiths seem to prefer working with the Remington platform.
|09-12-2003, 07:55 AM||#7|
Join Date: Jan 2003
Boar Hunting with a .308
I know this is a thread about accuracy, utility, and who makes the best
rifle, but when the issue of boar hunting comes up, I have to say that
a rifle with a 24 or a 26 inch tube is a bit unwieldy for the task. I'd have
close look at the carbines that are available in .308 caliber.
My personal favorite is the Ruger M77 RSI International. Ruger for
the big claw extractor....Boars can be a mite dangerous when offended
or wounded, and that extractor just makes me feel better about the
whole business of going into the thick stuff after something that is
big enough and strong enough to kill me, and is perfectly willing to
do so. The difference between a one-minute rifle and a two-minute
rifle won't make any difference at the ranges involved. A failure to
stop the charge, followed by a failure to extract can be downright
unhealthy if a wounded, 400-pound Russian Boar has you in the
I like the Mannlicher style stock of the RSI, but Ruger, Remington, and Winchester all offer light, handy bolt-rifles with barrel lengths more suited
to that type of hunting.
I know that the Remington and Winchester rifles are more accurate
out of box, but the Rugers can be tweaked to be amazingly accurate.
I have three RSI carbines, and the most innacurate one prints 1.5 MOA
out to 300 yards. (4.5-inch group at 300)
Just my nickel's worth...
|09-12-2003, 06:31 PM||#8|
Join Date: Feb 2003
Hey no problem Just a lively discussion between two shooters. You're right, if either Remy or Winnie figures out the QC thing, most likely going to have to pay a little extra $$ to offset their cost! You're absolutely correct about the "custom shop" fallacy with the PSS. I can't count how many people get that wrong impression, including a few LEO guys that should know better! Like you said, IF a consumer manages to get either PSS or Stealth in "good" condition, either is going to be a shooter, no doubt.
I agree with Mute to a certain extent regarding the available options between Remy and Winnie as well as riflesmiths. But any of the name "tactical" riflesmiths (TBA, IBA, GA Precision et al) will build you anything you want in practically any configuration, as long as you have the time and the $$. But, it would seem that the M700 is the preferred action, due to no certain extent, the adoption of the action by USMC M40A1/M40A3 and Army SWS M24. Let's not forget the legendary Carlos Hathcock whose rifle was built on a M70 action!
Well said John.
|09-12-2003, 09:28 PM||#9|
Join Date: Jun 2003
To play with at the range I'd go Remington, to hunt with I'd go Winchester 70. My own experience has been that the Remington trigger is easier to tune or replace but arguably more delicate. I clearly prefer the Winchester safety and trigger for hunting or rough use but for day trips in temperate weather it would be hard to find a difference. In my guns accuracy was acceptable either way. My own experience is no problems with the Remington extractor, and I have a couple of cases here someplace with a clear indication that the brass would fail before the extractor slipped but I can't argue with reports.
That said I currently own a lightweight Ruger and a Steyr Scout which is a real toy/conversation piece, both interesting, and for practical use as opposed to meeting a rule book range requirement I'll always go with a carbine for a .308 and reserve a rifle for varmint or magnum (not necessarily belted) longer range (energy and bullet weight more than accuracy be it noted) cartridges for field use.
Pick'em both up and one will feel better than the other - buy the one that feels better.
|09-13-2003, 08:15 AM||#10|
Join Date: Aug 2002
Thanks everyone. I really appreciate the thoughtful comments. I've held the pss but not the model 70.
I was told about the savage 10FP and I was able to hold one of those. Hear rumors that for the price of the FP10 (a little more than 1/2 the cost of the PSS or 70) it is a good deal however the forend of the stock is real flimsy. The "local gun dealer" said the barrel has an aluminum bedding and is free floated and therefore, it is not touching and there is no reason to worry about the flimsy forend. Dealer said it is a quality firearm. Any thoughts on this?
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