KainThornn

I didn't make mention of which shotgun I thought LE used more, I'm just debating your price statement "twice as much". All the numbers I pulled were direct from the manufacturer's sites, so how can I be "perverting" it? You should look more closely at the Mossberg page before you start farting out statements like

"Lets start with your perverted price information. Clearly you listed the most expensive Mossber Model 500 you could find (rather than the one police would use) and how convenient it is titled Tactical Turkey to help support your false argument, verses the cheapest Remington you could find which doesn't match the one posted as the model used by 95% of LE agencies."

There's more expensive Mossbergs on their list and there's less expensive Remingtons in their site...

http://www.remington.com/products/fi...ic-18inch.aspx
http://www.remington.com/products/fi...c-7-round.aspx

PS- Just so we're on the same page, the 590 9 shot ranges from $485 to $622. Maybe you can pick out less expensive Mossberg 500's from that list? Ones that would be found in LE cruisers.

Swamp

Remington 870P 12G Law Enforcement Model, 18 Inch, Ghost Rings, Tac Light

Price: $1,119.99

Remington 870P 12G Law Enforcement Model, 18 Inch, Ghost Rings, Tac Light


Mossber 500 (most expensive one I could find) Mossberg 500 Tactical Persuader 12g 18.5" w/CAR Stock

Price: $773.99

Mossberg 500 Tactical Persuader 12g 18.5" w/CAR Stock

It appeared you needed a little help finding a fair price comparison.

You wont lose your manhood if LE used Mossberg shotguns

KainThornn

So you found the most expensive models in both camps. Nice you aren't using any links from the actual manufacturer sites, these could be aftermarket buildups. My manhood is safe from your overly zealous worship of Mossberg, but apparently yours is very threatened by the fact the 870 is a standard in LE use. I think you're just being a fanboi at this point and further intelligent discussion with you on the topic is no longer possible. I'm checking out of this thread.

Swamp

Thank God you're checking out; I cant imagine what you're fighting about.

Incidentally both prices were from the same retailer and cheaper than manufacturers pricing; the Remington I posted in my example was the Remington the poster was talking about that you're arguing about which happens to be the most expensive which was my point, if you remember. You're the only one playing switcheroo and now that you're busted is most likely why you're bugging out.

You're just blowing smoke. Sorry I didn't fall for your story.

Honest, you wont lose your manhood if LE uses Mossburg shotguns.

Steve in Allentown, PA

Break away from old-fashioned shotguns designed for hunting. Get a modern shotgun optimized for CQB. Get a Saiga 12 gauge, gas operated, semi-auto and mate it with an MD Arms 20 round drum mag. Now there's some unstoppable firepower for when the zombie hordes start coming through the front door. It isn't pretty but it's dead nuts reliable and will throw more lead faster than any of the tube-fed blunderbusses mentioned above.

Swamp

I think he's talking home or personal defense, not defense of a Country. A simple pump does the job; gassers are always subject to failure to feed. I mean you're only talking one shot.

KainThornn

Buncha fanbois...*vomits in disgust*

Steve in Allentown, PA

In terms of reliability I suppose a single shot would be ranked #1, followed by a double barrel coach gun, followed by a pump, followed by recoil and gas operated.

Pumps are not perfect though. I've seen many guys short stroke 870s. In fact, the short stroking thing happened to me one too many times so I moved to an 1100 which has always functioned perfectly. I know it's mostly a question of an adequate amount of practice but in the heat of battle or competition the simplest things can often go wrong.

The 1100 is my pretty shotgun while the Saiga is my national defense shotgun.

As with all personal gun choices the potential buyer should handle and shoot as many types, makes, and models as possible so as to find the one that suits him the best.

Swamp

You sure make a simple choice difficult but then I think what you're really trying to do is defend your personal choice of using a gasser which by your own testimony is a worst choice for reliability.

We're talking home defense here, you dont even need to aim; you do need to maneuver between walls and door frames meaning a short barrel with a large capacity magazine which you get with the most popular choice for home defense a pump.

Now you claim to have witnessed "a lot of guys short stroke a pump" (I have to imagine in an emergency condition since that's what we're talking about) I find that hard to believe. A pump is about the easiest multi shot weapon to operate there is and if you dont have the skill to rack the pump, you're probably likely to shoot yourself in the foot as well.

I have to say that your recommendation of a gasser with a 20 round drum magazine sounds like a Mall Ninja mentality. Not many thugs stick around for an all out gun fight past the first shot fired by a homeowner.

Steve in Allentown, PA

Easy there big fella. Personal attacks don't enhance your arguments.

Yes, I have seen and experienced short stroking of 870s in high stress environments. To me this problem can be overcome with practice. It's just a question of how much practice it will take to get the muscle memory up to speed.

The potential for malfunction necessarily increases with the increase in mechanical complexity. A rock is potentially more reliable than a Saturn V rocket. However, the shotgun that I hold in high regard is based on the AK-47 design and is built in the Izmash factory in Russia. The AK design has a well deserved reputation for utter reliability especially if it is cleaned and lubed once in a while.

Semi-autos of whatever caliber can be perfectly reliable as long as they are maintained, are tested to see if they have any particular ammo preferences, and the operator has put in plenty of trigger time with them. In my misspent youth I learned these things through hard experience. I believe that the more casual shooters are better served by simpler mechanisms which is why I always recommend revolvers rather than 1911s to people who are first-time handgun buyers .

Thankfully, I've reached that point in my life where I can now shoot my firearms recreationally and competitively rather than professionally. The mall ninja thing made me laugh - thanks for that. I just think the 20 round drum mag is "way cool" as the kids say. The fact that is completely 100% reliable is a bonus. Having twenty rounds of 00 buck immediately available without reloading is comforting to me.

One other thing caught my eye in your reply regarding home defense tactics. Personally, in a home invasion scenario you won't likely see me trying to clear the house. I'll be down behind a piece of furniture with my 20 round drum waiting for the bad guys to come to me. If for some reason I have to go searching the house it will be with a 1911 loaded with ten rounds of hot hollowpoints. If the wife is also home, she'll be on the phone to 911 while she hunkers down behind a piece of furniture with her 16" Marlin .44 mag.

One last thing. Whether you bring the shotgun to your shoulder and look over the barrel or point shoot it from the hip or tucked between your ribs and bicep, you must point it in the right direction to achieve a hit. The shot dispersion won't be more than fist sized at normal room distances so aiming of some sort will be necessary to achieve a hit. Luck is not something I'd depend on although it certainly comes in handy at times.